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Koub
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Re: ANTI-GRIEFING System

Post by Koub » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:13 pm

Create servers with private access, where the admin only gives the password to people he personally knows, trusts, and wants to play with. No griefers.
Create open servers where whoever wants can come in. Say hello to griefers.
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How to deal with griefers

Post by boksiora » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:27 pm

Hi,

Those trolls are annoying

Maybe make some report system and raking system so we can ban trolls.
If someone is reported as troll he cant join games for a day or some time..


Also some rules when the player is banned from few games the game should display alert when he joins
Last edited by ssilk on Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: changed topic: "griefer", not "troll"!

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Re: How to deal with trolls

Post by Kane » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:36 pm

This will never happen period. If you have trolls on a server get a proper admin to run it. Those kind of systems tend to be ran by trolls instead.

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Re: How to deal with trolls

Post by boksiora » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:42 pm

It will be very good if you can type

Code: Select all

/report Dat_coffee


and next time he joins a game a warning will be dislayed

like

Code: Select all

Notification: Dat_coffee has been reported by 10 players in the past week

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Re: How to deal with trolls

Post by ssilk » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:31 pm

This is a very good idea.
Until there is the message

Code: Select all

Notification: boksiora has been reported by 10 players in the past week
Because a troll found out how to compromise that system.
:twisted:
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Re: How to deal with trolls

Post by darkfrei » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:41 pm

How about save game backup on every griefer entering?
Last edited by darkfrei on Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to deal with trolls

Post by ssilk » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:45 pm

My strategy as griefer then: I come in, wait 1 hour and then...

PS: It's griefer, not troll!
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Re: How to deal with trolls

Post by darkfrei » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:53 pm

ssilk wrote:My strategy as griefer then: I come in, wait 1 hour and then...
But you are need to save it before! Are you doing that?

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Re: How to deal with trolls

Post by ssilk » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:01 pm

darkfrei wrote:
ssilk wrote:My strategy as griefer then: I come in, wait 1 hour and then...
But you are need to save it before! Are you doing that?
Of course: The game was saved on hour before, when I came into the game. The other players have build about 10.000 new entities in that time, me (the griefer) just waited... ;)
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Re: How to deal with trolls

Post by darkfrei » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:06 pm

ssilk wrote:
darkfrei wrote:But you are need to save it before! Are you doing that?
Of course: The game was saved on hour before, when I came into the game. The other players have build about 10.000 new entities in that time, me (the griefer) just waited... ;)
How about global UNDO all massive deconstructing of them? For admins and moderators, not for all.

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Re: How to deal with griefers

Post by ssilk » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:19 pm

Me (as griefer) would construct then instead: Add belts at unpleasant area for example. Much more mean and just one example of many. :)

BTW: an UNDO function would be useful for normal players too..


And I keep my opinion: Griefers can be part of the game.

...

I think griefers must be thought about like terrorists. When you think into that direction, then you come to much more useful ideas. ;)

For example: A player owns, what he builds. Nobody can change that, but the player. Or those who owns a "change key", which he only get from the player.
And the player controls that keys also from distance. For example he can remove the keys automatically when he logs out or give other players the ability to create keys for his buildings. And so on. So the player builds a network of trust to other players. The more tight this "network of trust" is, the less fun for a griefer.
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Re: How to deal with griefers

Post by boksiora » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:32 pm

Ok here is simplified ruleset that will work in most situations

1) make new /report command
2) player cant use /report command if he is not in the game for at least 1 hour
3) if player has been reported he cant use the /report command for some time (this can be geometric progression)




Those griefers are serious problem. They can ruin hours of fun with few grenades.


Pls make something :shock: :shock: :shock:



PS: I like the idea of "change key", but what about the grenades?

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Re: How to deal with griefers

Post by vtx » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:42 am

Change key : I love that, griefer will now be able to place item that cannot be remove by other players.

/report : Good luck if you join a server own by griefers they will /report you when you enter their server. The griefer can join your server and then wait the required time and /report you.

Most of the time griefers will use the tool supposedly to prevent them against normal players. To date the best way to prevent griefer is to restrict access to your server. If they can't join they can't harm you.

If you want to play with others only open 1 slots at a time to see if the player is not a griefer.

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Re: How to deal with griefers

Post by boksiora » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:51 pm

ok extended way

lets assume you cant use /report command if you are not in the game for 1 hour

hard ban maybe is not the solution

but at least make a rank or reputation system

Report pseudocode

Code: Select all

if(player_sends_report) {
  if(player_reputaton > 1){
	// player can report
	troll_player_reputation = troll_player_reputation - (destroyed_ally_buildings * times_reported)
  }
}
Join game pseudocode

Code: Select all

if(player_reputaton < 1){
// player is reported ... show game notification 
} else {
// show reputation score
}

Gain reputation

if you play X game-hours without /report your reputation goes up




If you combine this logic with "change key" logic trolls will be doomed.

Why?


1) "change key" logic does not allow them to change buildings
2) reputation penalty of (destroyed_ally_buildings * times_reported) is harsh and when they use grenade to destroy a lot of stuff they will have big penalty





hope this is useful and we can solve this troll problem

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Re: How to deal with griefers

Post by vtx » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:04 am

Change key by itself will be more easily for griefer to use because instead of removing / destroying entity they can now just place entity all over the map. Change key prevent other player to remove your entity.

For grenade a simple friendly fire OFF can do the trick.

Any system that rely on global information hold on master server (factorio server ) can be "hack" directly without playing. How can you place a secure system while you can alter some data on master server from many server not owned by factorio ( game server ) ?

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Re: How to deal with griefers

Post by DerivePi » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:51 pm

Any actionable consequence must be based on breaking some established rules such as:
1. Changing small stuff (belts, inserters, power poles, 1 or 2 assemblers over a countdown timer...) is never griefing.
2. Changing big stuff is not griefing if:
- The person who built it doesn't complain (if a deconstruction limit of their factory is met by another player they are prompted to complain to that player and that player receives a warning)
- The person who is deconstructing stops and waits through a countdown for the complaint to be dismissed
- A quorum of the rest of the players don't agree that it was griefing. After continuing to deconstruct the rest of the players are notified of the complaint and allowed to vote on kicking that player.
3. For team co-op, killing another player is not griefing if:
- It only happens once within a countdown
- The player killed doesn't complain
- A quorum doesn't agree.

Maybe when a player is kicked they receive a report, but I don't think anyone wants the responsibility or has the authority to prevent a consumer from enjoying the multiplayer game they purchased except for local server hosts as it regards their server. As for treating griefers like terrorists, I don't think griefers should be hunted down, shot through the head and them dumped into the ocean just because they are stupid kids.

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Re: How to deal with griefers

Post by torne » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:36 pm

DerivePi wrote:1. Changing small stuff (belts, inserters, power poles, 1 or 2 assemblers over a countdown timer...) is never griefing.
This immediately just suggests a griefing strategy of finding out-of-the-way parts of the factory and just rotating/removing/adding a couple of individual segments of belt so that the belts get mixed and production gradually halts.

Not that I'm planning to do so ;) Just noting that it's hard to have any objective standard the game can measure for what behaviour constitutes griefing.

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Re: How to deal with griefers

Post by DerivePi » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:50 pm

torne wrote:This immediately just suggests a griefing strategy of finding out-of-the-way parts of the factory and just rotating/removing/adding a couple of individual segments of belt so that the belts get mixed and production gradually halts.
I think most of us would be OK with that. Could even be its own funny little game. These small mistakes happen even when players aren't trying to cause trouble and is the price for playing multiplayer.

Griefing is definitely a subjective issue. The key for me though is communication. If I tell you you're griefing me and you continue it and the community agrees with me, everyone knows you crossed several lines and you get to go play somewhere else. As a technical game, there are many OCD players that are quick to "correct" someone else's work. And the receiving OCD player is quick to cry grief. For small to moderate issues, this should be handled individually. My concern is more for the player that jumps into a game, wrecks it and then leaves.

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Re: How to deal with griefers

Post by torne » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:00 pm

I wouldn't be, I've done that to myself by accident enough times and had to clean up the mess (or even deal with defenses failing) as a result, so I'd find it pretty maddening if somebody did it on purpose :)

I'm not saying there's no need for a way to try to deal with griefers; just saying that I don't think that you can define a set of actual systems that dictate what constitutes "reportable" behaviour. A way to share information about which players have behaved badly (for whatever the server they're on's definition of "badly") in a more structured and automatic way than a forum thread would be neat, I'm just not sure there's a way to prevent that system itself from being abused, and you just have to come up with something robust enough that it'll be rare.

I don't know how the account verification system in Factorio currently works, and it's very likely that it *doesn't* currently work in a way that would permit this, but it's possible in principle to have a system such that one game server can prove to a third party (cryptographically) that a given player was actually connected to the server, in an unspoofable way, if it had the central authentication server's help. If that was available, then you could use that to build a system that could tell you how many servers a player has been banned from, and use that to evaluate whether you want them to connect or not. If you connected to a server run by mean people, they could indeed ban you and get you a single "black mark", but they wouldn't be able to report you over and over unless you connected to a bunch of other servers run by the same people. It could still be up to every individual server what the standard/systems are for you to get banned, and how many servers you have to have been banned from for the server to not let you on in the first place.

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Re: How to deal with griefers

Post by DerivePi » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:56 pm

torne wrote:I wouldn't be, I've done that to myself by accident enough times and had to clean up the mess (or even deal with defenses failing) as a result, so I'd find it pretty maddening if somebody did it on purpose
Then I have to say that you shouldn't be playing multiplayer. You can detect when something is changed you can't detect the purpose the player had in mind for changing it. Of course, as a last option you can beg the admin, if present, to kick that player.
torne wrote: I don't think that you can define a set of actual systems that dictate what constitutes "reportable" behaviour.
Of course you can. There is definitely a framework of rules that can be crafted (and should be) that emphasizes "fun" over unfair. I personally don't care for the global report system. I just want them removed, after due process, from the game I'm currently playing. Just give me a button that says "Do you want JackA removed from the game for griefing?" If a majority click yes, griefer is gone. Back to fun. Due process would be the occurrence of a specific offense as detected by the system, the lodging of a complaint and then a vote.

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