Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Should the offshore pump need power and/or fuel to run?

Yes. Cause it would add more fun than it complicates things.
11
6%
No. It adds complexity without adding game-value; and eventually (not proven) it's game-killing for beginners.
55
28%
Yes. Cause the magic (missing emergence/technology jump) disturbs me.
12
6%
No. The game is emergent enough (any future technology looks like magic).
6
3%
Maybe, if the pump needs coal for kickstarting and electricity to run full powered.
24
12%
Maybe another solution, for example a burner-/hand-pump for the startup and an electric offshore pump...
72
37%
I don't know, just want to see the results.
15
8%
 
Total votes: 195

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by MeduSalem » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:38 pm

ssilk wrote:Hm. To go really off-topic: I know the people behind this project. Prague is a nice city, only 400 kilometers away, the bus costs just 20 Euros, I've spent a week or so with them last year.

And what I saw is, that they live, what they always say in the forums. It's hard. But they do it, because that makes sense for them.

Who is not searching for the sense?

Some might say: Those companies with 60 Euros AAA+ games. The just want to make money.
Well, that can also make sense. The problem with the current way, how capitalism works is this: The only sense is to make money and grow. There is no deeper sense, and if someone says "I'm a capitalist, but I believe in god (or similar ideas)", he is just self-deluding. God (or similar ideas) is (for me) the search for the sense.So, logically: If someone says he is a capitalist, he has already found his sense (and doesn't need to add, that he believes in god, cause that would mean, that he is still searching :) )
So, current big game companies (not only game-companies, I mean really all) are capitalists. That's good! For example: Such games wouldn't be possible without. In other words: They have found their sense.
But the world is changing.
And what I think is, that the world will always need capitalism, sometimes more, sometimes less, but what we currently need are much more companies, that search for more sense, than just making money.
And the Factorio team (Wube) is one of them. :)
Yeah, I know that the people behind Wube are trying hard to be different. A lot of companies/developers in the indie sector are trying that... it's basically their selling point. Look at Re-Logic... they still add a lot of free content to Terraria even long after the initial release even they don't have to. They added so much stuff in the aftermath that they could have made it a Terraria 2 already.

... also I'd never spend 60 bucks on a game anymore without a lot of good reviews or playtesting the game first. If a game in that price range is additionally providing DLCs I'm missing out on purpose because that's just rip-off for content that should be already included in that huge price tag. I mean look at crap EA is selling... a FIFA game every year and they still want 60-100 bucks (with DLCs/Season pass crap) just for switching around a couple of teams between leagues, adding a few names and retiring some others. There's literally no new content and naive people are still buying it. Also they don't have to develop a new graphics engine either since they pretty much re-use the same engine they use for all their game franchizes.


Also I think that Capitalism, especially the banking system giving out credits which can never be paid back without taking another credit and so on, so reserve banks have to print even more money out of thin air to counteract which is unavoidibly leading to massive inflation since the amount of money doesn't reflect the actual amount of real assets anymore... is a concept from the past begging to crumble under itself and should never have been adopted in this widespread fashion in the first place. There are so many loopholes in the system that it's only a matter of time until it collapses like a house of cards. It's as bad as other systems in history have been, like Communism... or an even more hated system I won't even mention here. Basically capitalism is just a "richer" country outsourcing all the problems to "poorer" countries so we don't have to see all the ugly side effects the system is coming with and because the poorer countries can't afford to say no they have to succumb to the demands of the richer ones. And if they decide to say no because they had enough we bring them war, either by military or economical means to subdue them. A lot of people say everything sucks... like working in jobs they hate, being stuck in consumer craze, or just life itself because of lack of perspective since they can't change anything about it anyways... and a good deal of them don't really know who their enemy is in this system. It's the only reason this crap of a system survived into this century. All under the great philosophy of democracy, it's almost unbelieveable that it's our own damn fault that everything is the way it is. Like Goethe said already: "The best slave is the one who thinks he is free." ... In my opinion we are all guilty the same for all the poverty and wars on this planet because we elected the corrupt/corporate politicians who make these kind of decisions for us. People may say what they want... that we have gone a far distance ever since the medieval times when it comes to standards of living, but one thing clearly didn't change: The distribution of wealth and power.

I mean if we talk about Utopia then I pretty much think of things like Star Trek and that's where things should be headed at, though I know some things are pretty much impossible, like replicators... but a lot of todays economy could still be automated or done by robots, eventually becoming a research and artistic society where things are NOT done just for the sake of personal profit but rather because people actually LIKE doing what they do.

But I think if we want to continue that discussion we should take it elsewhere, like in PM or something...

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by PacifyerGrey » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:13 pm

I just got an idea about all this.

Due to placement restriction offshore pump can't be effectively supplied with fuel. Even electricity is an issue there.

However if we do separate pump from liquid source it will definitely start working fine.

I mean we can have different (passive) water intake sources like cheap offshore or expensive deep well but to actually start pumping you should attach a pump to it (directly or using tubes). These intake sources will act like they are infinite storages. And the pump itself might be different in nature - we already have a nice new electric pump and we can get an early game version - burner pump - with exactly same functions but maybe with lower throughput. Such a pump will perfectly line up with boilers for early game steam design.

Looking at this whole mechanism I see that a common storage should generally not be able to deliver liquid with large throughput if not using a pump. It can still give something but pump should be required it you want to deliver liquids from any kind of storage be it common liquid tank or a passive water intake.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Brambor » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:36 pm

Hi I was off the internet and I do not have much time right now but I do have an suggestion (that may have been already said) and reasons (that you may already hear) to add energy consumption to pumps:
‘Burner offshore pump‘ and ‘Electric pump‘
I believe that in new version (0.15) ‘steam engines’ will work in a different way. I believe that water will be pumped by ‘offshore pump’, heat it in boilers, once it will become steam ‘Steam boilers’ will be able to consume that steam and then (I’m not sure) they will return water of equal volume OR release (some or all of) the steam.
Now the free offshore pump could have been explained by pressure so far. Steam is released so under-pressured engine suck water from boilers which suck water from offshore pump which suck water from water tile. That is not very clean in terms of reality so if the pump consumed some electricity it would make more sense.
Now there is the problem, the paradox: ‘You cannot get electricity without steam, you cannot get steam without water, you cannot get water without pump, you cannot get pump going without electricity.’ However, this chain can be broken by adding new entity; same as the now edited ‘Electric offshore pump’ but a weaker and mainly a ‘burner’ one.
This (with my another idea about electric transport belts) should make Factorio cleaner of ‘free energy’ entities.
Now for the balance (I’m not the balance guy, but the basics at least):
‘Burner offshore pump’
- This shouldn’t be able to support 10 steam engines, I would give it 3 OR 6 so the ratio (4 boilers/3steam engines) could be used perfectly
- Coal consumption should be about twice as much (so 4 times as much energy since boiler efficiency is 50%) as you would need to run electric version, then the upgrade to an electric one will be wanted
‘Electric offshore pump’
- This currently can handle 10 steam engines (or 40 or 30 I don’t know) I would keep that
- Make an appropriate electric consumption, based on throughput I think (as everything in Factorio)
With the balance done, I like the idea of running out of power (before you get solar) and the need of one setup purely coal-based (burner pump, burner inserter, steam engines) to ‘cast on’ the electric one; or having pure coal-based all the time to support electric pumps all the time (That would be absolutely wonderful concept I think :])

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Alien_Squasher » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:03 pm

Lemme point this out to the poster of the OP: No water no electricity, no matter how much coal you throw in the boilers. So if you wanna ever move past the start of the game pumps need to work by themselves, or you need one that works by itself and others that require electricity but are upgraded versions, I can see the handpump, but still, you want a cheap crappy start pump.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by mexmer » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:13 pm

Alien_Squasher wrote:Lemme point this out to the poster of the OP: No water no electricity, no matter how much coal you throw in the boilers. So if you wanna ever move past the start of the game pumps need to work by themselves, or you need one that works by itself and others that require electricity but are upgraded versions, I can see the handpump, but still, you want a cheap crappy start pump.
which is why also was suggested for example coal powered pump (you can go with other ideas).
unfortunately this cannot be done even as mod, due engine limitation, you cannot have offshore pump (as fluid generator) to consume any kind of fuel and/or energy (upgraded version). you also cannot modify boiler, to be able to draw water itself.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Alien_Squasher » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:18 pm

mexmer wrote:
Alien_Squasher wrote:Lemme point this out to the poster of the OP: No water no electricity, no matter how much coal you throw in the boilers. So if you wanna ever move past the start of the game pumps need to work by themselves, or you need one that works by itself and others that require electricity but are upgraded versions, I can see the handpump, but still, you want a cheap crappy start pump.
which is why also was suggested for example coal powered pump (you can go with other ideas).
unfortunately this cannot be done even as mod, due engine limitation, you cannot have offshore pump (as fluid generator) to consume any kind of fuel and/or energy (upgraded version). you also cannot modify boiler, to be able to draw water itself.
Well.... then how about this. Take a cue from the monotony that is minecraft, and have water barrels at first that you have to fill at a lake so it makes it manual, solving the issue.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:49 pm

A barrel water would last less than a minute before it is empty with three steam enigines.

And there are many voices, that say barrels can carry too much. And it is questionable if barrels survive the introduction of liquid-wagons. :)
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by MeduSalem » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:26 pm

ssilk wrote:And there are many voices, that say barrels can carry too much.
I think that as well.

A storage tank can hold 2500 fluid of any kind... it requires 3x3=9 tiles as footprint... that makes a ratio of 277.77 Fluid per tile.

A barrel can take 25 fluid... a stack can hold 10 barrels... thats 250 fluid per slot, a chest hast 48 slots... 12000 fluid per chest and tile... and with 9 chests you have 108000 fluid on the same area as a storage tank.

No way that a 40x difference in magnitude can be considered as balanced. So either the Storage tank capacity is vastly improved or the barrels nerfed to the ground.
ssilk wrote:And it is questionable if barrels survive the introduction of liquid-wagons. :)
Hopefully not. In my opinion barrels can be removed completely because universal barrelling will only convulute the item menu further for no reason. :P

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Yoyobuae » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:29 pm

MeduSalem wrote:A barrel can take 25 fluid... a stack can hold 10 barrels... thats 250 fluid per slot, a chest hast 48 slots... 12000 fluid per chest and tile... and with 9 chests you have 108000 fluid on the same area as a storage tank.
But that kind of storage density comes at a price: 4392 steel!

Trade-off, trade-off. Everything is a trade-off. ;)
Last edited by Yoyobuae on Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by MeduSalem » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:31 pm

Yoyobuae wrote:But that kind of storage density comes at a price: 4392 steel!
Everything comes with an initial price... but that doesn't matter in a long running game anyways.

It only really matters for speed running the game and I highly doubt that people who do speedrunning will give a damn about barrels once fluid wagons for rail are a thing... just because of the costs.


So in my opinion initial setup costs are quite a mediocre balancing argument in sandbox games that may run for all eternity.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:35 pm

MeduSalem wrote: Hopefully not. In my opinion barrels can be removed completely because universal barrelling will only convulute the item menu further for no reason. :P
That depends. In my opinion the packaging/boxing is a cool game element. Recipes in the known way (like now) are not really needed for that. See more viewtopic.php?f=80&t=19343 Boxing / Packaging / Container / Cargobox : Pre-Filling
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Yoyobuae » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:37 pm

MeduSalem wrote:Hopefully not. In my opinion barrels can be removed completely because universal barrelling will only convulute the item menu further for no reason. :P
I personally would love universal barreling. Just consider that barreling/unbarreling of liquids are assembler recipes (hint: recipe switching ;) ).

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by MeduSalem » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:39 pm

ssilk wrote:That depends. In my opinion the packaging/boxing is a cool game element. Recipes in the known way (like now) are not really needed for that. See more viewtopic.php?f=80&t=19343 Boxing / Packaging / Container / Cargobox : Pre-Filling
Yeah I liked the boxing/container idea (and also portal cranes and whatnot to handle these "containers"), but I don't think that it should be applied to fluids because I think fluids are their own kind of game mechanic with their own gameplay and problems to solve.
Yoyobuae wrote:I personally would love universal barreling. Just consider that barreling/unbarreling of liquids are assembler recipes (hint: recipe switching ;) ).
I almost expected that post now. :P

But I'll refer to what I wrote for ssilk... fluids are their own game mechanic.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Yoyobuae » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:46 pm

MeduSalem wrote:
Yoyobuae wrote:I personally would love universal barreling. Just consider that barreling/unbarreling of liquids are assembler recipes (hint: recipe switching ;) ).
I almost expected that post now. :P

But I'll refer to what I wrote for ssilk... fluids are their own game mechanic.
Aww, but imagine how awesome it would be to put 2 lubricant filled barrels into unbarreling assembler, which outputs to a 5 tile pipe length (or better, pipe to ground) connecting to nowhere. Next the assembler switches over to blue belt production and slurps back the lubricant it output earlier. :D

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by MeduSalem » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:51 pm

Yoyobuae wrote:Aww, but imagine how awesome it would be to put 2 lubricant filled barrels into unbarreling assembler, which outputs to a 5 tile pipe length (or better, pipe to ground) connecting to nowhere. Next the assembler switches over to blue belt production and slurps back the lubricant it output earlier. :D
...
:D

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Alien_Squasher » Thu May 25, 2017 5:50 pm

MeduSalem wrote:
Yoyobuae wrote:Aww, but imagine how awesome it would be to put 2 lubricant filled barrels into unbarreling assembler, which outputs to a 5 tile pipe length (or better, pipe to ground) connecting to nowhere. Next the assembler switches over to blue belt production and slurps back the lubricant it output earlier. :D
...
:D
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ......

I just died.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by JohnyDL » Fri May 26, 2017 5:41 am

way to necro a post without adding to the discussion...

Since it's up here now though how about a pump that produces 30 liquid for free (unpowered) which is enough to start steam engines without being a hassle and then electricity turns that up to the full 1200

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Wed May 31, 2017 9:11 am

...why? What would you accomplish by doing that? From a gameplay perspective you're only confusing newbies who don't understand that their pump is working but not very well. It's working without power so doesn't need power. I don't see any benefit to actually implementing it either, other than that you'll probably need less shoreline. I ask you why you'd bother with this suggestion at all? The main reason everyone wants it to use electricity is for "realism" but this suggestion doesn't carry that so seems like you're just jumping on the suggestion bandwagon.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by JohnyDL » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:46 am

me? bandwagonning, nah just trying to provide a viable approach that won't make people too mad, it's 1200 now so powering it won't make it better than present. Having a trickle of water is actually kind of semi realistic, because you can hand power of battery power pumps a little without too much effort for a small amount of water but you can't get full throughput that way, even if you could you couldn't get it on all pumps that way. Confusing newbies is just one way of saying changing the learning curve :P there are things that are absolutely stupid in terms of the learning curve right now like the tech tree viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47945 but machines needing power to get the best use out of them is something fairly intuitive especially if you give them the flashing yellow warning system of everything else when they're unpowered.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:32 am

If a trickle is realistic then a lot of trickles is realistic. Given the size of the pump compared to the smaller and much more powerful Electric Pump, plus the level of tech of the engineer, I don't see a problem.
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