Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Should the offshore pump need power and/or fuel to run?

Yes. Cause it would add more fun than it complicates things.
11
6%
No. It adds complexity without adding game-value; and eventually (not proven) it's game-killing for beginners.
55
28%
Yes. Cause the magic (missing emergence/technology jump) disturbs me.
12
6%
No. The game is emergent enough (any future technology looks like magic).
6
3%
Maybe, if the pump needs coal for kickstarting and electricity to run full powered.
24
12%
Maybe another solution, for example a burner-/hand-pump for the startup and an electric offshore pump...
72
37%
I don't know, just want to see the results.
15
8%
 
Total votes: 195

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:25 am

Hoeloe wrote:If you go for a burnerpump (you need to explain me how they could work, since i don't even know how burner inserter work) I need to add, that the normal pump must remain.
Hm. A burner pump is obviously a pump, that works with fuel instead of electric energy or "magic nothing", like currently.
Would it be bad when the game gets more complex? It also gets more complex with your idea, even if it's in a different way.
Well, it's not my idea. I just changed yours so, that it is a bit less complex, without loosing the basic idea...

My personal opinion about this subject is quite mixed. :) From my point of a change isn't needed.
Also i want to mention with my idea it would be possible to do a redundant powersupply for your electrict coal mining drills. That would actually make the game easier :P
Good point. :) But redundancy could also be, that you have nuclear energy and as reduntant energy still steam engines. Or - as now - have solar energy and accumulator and redundant energy is steam energy.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Koub » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:56 am

On a second thought, I'd rather see a burner power generator that wouldn't use water for early game, like emergency generators work nowadays (except it would work on coal except petrol), at the cost of being far less fuel efficient than the burner + Steam engine setup. And then, okay, no more need for burner anything, you'd just need a few burner generators for your coal age.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hoeloe » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:25 am

Koub wrote:coal age.
I like it! :D

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hannu » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:29 am

bobucles wrote:I think an energy pump would only add dumb clutter to the game. Burner inserters have their niche, but a burner pump is one of those things you build once and forget.
In my opinion build once and forget -things makes the game boring. Of course it is ultimate goal of the Factorio, automate everything. But it is interesting and rewarding only if I have to think, plan, calculate and work to get a complex network of mutually interacting systems function and there are still some trade offs and uncertainties which force me to occasional supervising and service work. I lose interest to a game when I get my base "ready", all automated to nearly perfect level, and as large as I see interesting to build. But all easy build and forget -things, like current water pumps and solar panels, are just boring. Water pumps are not a big thing, but as well devs could scrap whole water from the game. Currently it is just plumbing of couple of pipes, which are more dumb routine work than interesting planning after few playthroughs and planning of good production layouts.

I agree with MeduSalem. Because there are so different players in Factorio, devs should use time to make different complexity options. They would not to necessarily be options in vanilla game. Instead they could be options to increase complexity through modding even these functions would not be used in vanilla game. Different energy sources for items, energy consumption and pollution as properties of recipe instead of manufacturing entity, unpredictable seasonal and weather effects to give more challenge to energy production etc. would give very much more interesting content in Factorio. They would not change vanilla game at all but would open huge possibilities to modders and reality and/or complexity fans who want to make couple of hundreds of hours unpaid engineering work to play a video game. It seems that share of such players is not marginal. Large complex mods, like Bob's, are very popular and there are regular hopes of more complexity in forums.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by mexmer » Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:56 am

Koub wrote:On a second thought, I'd rather see a burner power generator that wouldn't use water for early game, like emergency generators work nowadays (except it would work on coal except petrol), at the cost of being far less fuel efficient than the burner + Steam engine setup. And then, okay, no more need for burner anything, you'd just need a few burner generators for your coal age.
coal age you say? where is my burner "powered" assembly machine :lol:

btw. you know, that trains require engine (which obviously look diesel), yet use coal/wood as fuel :D

but both of these are OT here ... so i will cut it.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by hk29 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:52 am

couldnt the current offshore pump be nerfed to provide a percentage (like 30%) of what it provides now so it would take multiple but still provides that magic power that makes it work. add an upgrade to say offshore pump plus engine to burn some type of fuel to bring back to full pump pressure and then 3 level upgrade would be offshore pump plus electric engine with electricity needed. would seem to add complexity and options but yet not make it overly complex for new players. so given the standard 1/14/10 ratio, one possible ratio could be 3/4/4. but i have been playing a while so any new challenge i would be okay with

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Alice3173 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:12 am

hk29 wrote:the standard 1/14/10 ratio
This is a bit unrelated to this specific topic but it'd be extremely helpful if information was given in game to help us figure out these ratios better. As far as I'm aware pumps don't give you any production values and steam engines don't give any fluid consumption values.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by mexmer » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:52 am

Alice3173 wrote:
hk29 wrote:the standard 1/14/10 ratio
This is a bit unrelated to this specific topic but it'd be extremely helpful if information was given in game to help us figure out these ratios better. As far as I'm aware pumps don't give you any production values and steam engines don't give any fluid consumption values.
good point - post it as separate idea - fluid production value, and fluid consumption value.

pumpjacks (for oil pumping), show pumping speed, and .. hmm chemical plants, well they have consumption decided by recipe, but other than that, indeed such info is missing, while energy consumption is present everywhere i think.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by bobucles » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:28 am

We're also talking about the lowest tier of power, which is the player's introduction to the game. It SHOULD be simple. Players shouldn't be solving complex logistic puzzles just to get their bearings in order. Pumps give players a bit of practice with water lines and are nearly impossible to screw up, which is perfectly fine for a beginner puzzle.

It's not a good idea to punish a novice player who is still learning a system. Energy pumps punish players who stall on energy by shutting the factory down. Those kinds of troubles belong at mid and endgame.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Alice3173 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:34 am

mexmer wrote:good point - post it as separate idea - fluid production value, and fluid consumption value.
Done. Hopefully it hasn't already been suggested before. I didn't see anything about it during my search though.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hoeloe » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:00 pm

ssilk wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:
Also i want to mention with my idea it would be possible to do a redundant powersupply for your electrict coal mining drills. That would actually make the game easier :P
Good point. :) But redundancy could also be, that you have nuclear energy and as reduntant energy still steam engines. Or - as now - have solar energy and accumulator and redundant energy is steam energy.
To clarify: I meant what I wrote, to have a redundant powersupply for the electric coal miningdrills. They could pick coal from the belt before it goes to the normal boilers/steamengines. Because often when I have power problems it starts with using more power than produced. Then the powernetwork gets unstable which causes the electricdrills to mine less coal which ends up in a vicious circle.

For sure you can do more complex redundancy when you reach T2, solar and accus. But in that early game I don't want to work with them because you need steel and batteries for it. Also I can't decide about the nuclear energy since I don't know how it will work. In every game I know nuclear power has a big downside like meltdown and stuff. In IRL nuclear power needs to be used to 100%, power supply is not allowed break to keep the cooling/water running which is also not allowed to break. Also I don't know what changes it will give to the powerusage order. Since the order is Solarpower>Steampower>Accus you allready need to do a complex switch to let your factory run with only solar/accus allday and have steampower as redundancy if something fails. I built one of thos switches...
Powerswitch solar and accu

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by OdinYggd » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:18 pm

Hoeloe wrote:
ssilk wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:
Also i want to mention with my idea it would be possible to do a redundant powersupply for your electrict coal mining drills. That would actually make the game easier :P
Good point. :) But redundancy could also be, that you have nuclear energy and as reduntant energy still steam engines. Or - as now - have solar energy and accumulator and redundant energy is steam energy.
To clarify: I meant what I wrote, to have a redundant powersupply for the electric coal miningdrills. They could pick coal from the belt before it goes to the normal boilers/steamengines. Because often when I have power problems it starts with using more power than produced. Then the powernetwork gets unstable which causes the electricdrills to mine less coal which ends up in a vicious circle.

For sure you can do more complex redundancy when you reach T2, solar and accus. But in that early game I don't want to work with them because you need steel and batteries for it. Also I can't decide about the nuclear energy since I don't know how it will work. In every game I know nuclear power has a big downside like meltdown and stuff. In IRL nuclear power needs to be used to 100%, power supply is not allowed break to keep the cooling/water running which is also not allowed to break. Also I don't know what changes it will give to the powerusage order. Since the order is Solarpower>Steampower>Accus you allready need to do a complex switch to let your factory run with only solar/accus allday and have steampower as redundancy if something fails. I built one of thos switches...
Powerswitch solar and accu
Its not as complicated as you think. I also have such a configuration. It takes a total of 4 combinators, an accumulator, and a power switch to implement the basic form. The full structure like I have uses 12 combinators, but also does things like disconnects the power station from the grid if the factory is taking more power than it is producing for any reason and turns off the inserters if the coal has run out in order to try and preserve power for restarting as long as possible.
Powerswitch, 3 stage hysteresis.
Also, my power station has 15 boilers per bank of 10 engines instead of the usual 14. Boiler #15 in each bank has a burner inserter, which will self-fuel from the coal belt. Like so even in a completely stone-dead blackstart, once fuel makes its way down the belt boiler #15 will fire up and start the engines turning, generating power to drive the other 14 inserters in each bank. Like so the entire station raises itself from the dead in mere seconds.

Expanding on this capacity to account for the water intakes also needing fuel or electricity would be a trivial matter I think, in fact the only hard part will be making the bootstrap solution shut off when the main power is online.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by HammerPiano » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:21 pm

I think that is not a good idea that offshore pumps need electricity. If it needs power, you need to produce in boilers that need water, but you can't make water because you have no power...

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:20 pm

TLDR:

A large number of people want it to stay the way it is for simplicity, and a slightly larger number of people want it to be more "realistic" (in spite of the rest of the game).

If this is implemented, you'll annoy a lot of players. If it's not implemented, there's always mods. One day there will most likely even be a mod that makes the game more realistic in general.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Factoruser » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:11 pm

It requires a whole rearrangement of the technology tree...

First of all you should have electric motors which are also used for inserters, belts and pumps. Second, you should be able to build electric generators that can create electricity out of any burning material, but not as efficient and eco-friendly like boilers plus steam engines.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:11 pm

Time enough to loose the sticky for this poll.

Facts:
The result of this poll is more or less similar to the mentioned poll about belts.
With the today's FFF it is for me more or less clear: This and similar suggestions will not be implemented with before Factorio 1.0 comes out.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by MeduSalem » Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:23 am

ssilk wrote:With the today's FFF it is for me more or less clear: This and similar suggestions will not be implemented with before Factorio 1.0 comes out.
As expected. With the roadmap update a couple of weeks back it was pretty much clear that they wouldn't add anything more than what is planned for 0.15+0.16. No amount of playthroughs they would have done internally would have changed that... except if they encountered a major flaw or something, but that would probably have occurred already or is already on the to-do list or has been confirmed but has been delayed into an optional addon/dlc somewhen after the 1.0 release.

So basically whatever people are suggesting now... nothing of it will make it into the game before 1.0 anymore. It's basically already idea gathering for possible DLCs/Addons, but I would say that they already have enough input for 10 addons as well... :lol:

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:05 am

MeduSalem wrote: So basically whatever people are suggesting now... nothing of it will make it into the game before 1.0 anymore. It's basically already idea gathering for possible DLCs/Addons, but I would say that they already have enough input for 10 addons as well... :lol:
Basically yes. But it doesn't mean, that it isn't implemented afterwards. I mean: there is so much ideas here in this board, good ideas (!), that they have work for the next 5 years.
Who knows what will really happen? So don't stop posting ideas. If an idea is good enough they will implement it anyway.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by MeduSalem » Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:52 am

ssilk wrote:So don't stop posting ideas. If an idea is good enough they will implement it anyway.
Yeah, I won't stop posting ideas if I have any that are worthwhile posting...


A little bit off topic... I didn't really think about any further ideas for several weeks already because I am back into torturing myself with Diablo 3... I actually can't believe that I'm doing that again. But I'm already on the verge of giving up on it again because the grind is real, the balancing is just urgh... and there is only so much fun to be had playing a game the entire community already considers dead (except maybe some Korean 24/7 players). Also I have like 10000 ideas for a seperate Action RPG already... but what does it matter if one can't implement anything and hasn't got the money to gather a bunch of people who'd be interested in doing such a project. I basically stopped posting good ideas on forums from major game development studios because they don't read the stuff anyways and even if they did they'd just butcher the idea and make it a real grindfest that kills the fun faster than it took them to implement the entire thing... that or they are trying to monetarize it to the extend where it's just being greedy. I really miss the time 20 years ago... when you had an idea and you could go to an established company and they said "awesome, let's do it"... now they don't even give a damn due to copyright and lawsuit problems AND because they are so closed minded that they really think they know what fun means just going by sales... forgetting that people often have no alternatives than buying the stuff even if it is bad and also because everyone else is playing it too so you don't want to be left out. It's no surprise to me that a lot of AAA franchizes by well known companies are crap nowadays... they keep on selling the same stuff over and over and over. They just lack fresh blood.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:47 am

Hm. To go really off-topic: I know the people behind this project. Prague is a nice city, only 400 kilometers away, the bus costs just 20 Euros, I've spent a week or so with them last year.

And what I saw is, that they live, what they always say in the forums. It's hard. But they do it, because that makes sense for them.

Who is not searching for the sense?

Some might say: Those companies with 60 Euros AAA+ games. The just want to make money.
Well, that can also make sense. The problem with the current way, how capitalism works is this: The only sense is to make money and grow. There is no deeper sense, and if someone says "I'm a capitalist, but I believe in god (or similar ideas)", he is just self-deluding. God (or similar ideas) is (for me) the search for the sense.So, logically: If someone says he is a capitalist, he has already found his sense (and doesn't need to add, that he believes in god, cause that would mean, that he is still searching :) )
So, current big game companies (not only game-companies, I mean really all) are capitalists. That's good! For example: Such games wouldn't be possible without. In other words: They have found their sense.
But the world is changing.
And what I think is, that the world will always need capitalism, sometimes more, sometimes less, but what we currently need are much more companies, that search for more sense, than just making money.
And the Factorio team (Wube) is one of them. :)
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