Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Should the offshore pump need power and/or fuel to run?

Yes. Cause it would add more fun than it complicates things.
11
6%
No. It adds complexity without adding game-value; and eventually (not proven) it's game-killing for beginners.
55
28%
Yes. Cause the magic (missing emergence/technology jump) disturbs me.
12
6%
No. The game is emergent enough (any future technology looks like magic).
6
3%
Maybe, if the pump needs coal for kickstarting and electricity to run full powered.
24
12%
Maybe another solution, for example a burner-/hand-pump for the startup and an electric offshore pump...
72
37%
I don't know, just want to see the results.
15
8%
 
Total votes: 195

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:31 am

So please tell me the difference between:

- Pump with burner
- Electric pump with burner steam-engine

Where is the difference - gameplay-wise?
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hannu » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:54 am

ssilk wrote:So please tell me the difference between:

- Pump with burner
- Electric pump with burner steam-engine

Where is the difference - gameplay-wise?
What is the point of electric pump with steam engine? Some kind of hybrid model maybe?

I think that if pumps will be changed there should be three models.

1. a burner pump with a capacity of maybe 20 units/s for beginning of the game and bootstrapping of power plants in later.
2. an electric pump like current offshore pump.
3. an expensive electric high capacity (300 units/s) pump for very large coal (and nuclear in future versions) powerplants. Maybe there should be higher capacity pipes too.

But pumps is not the first priority problem in my opinion. It would not be a big change in the game in any case. Water is free and unlimited resource and it is easy and cheap to make (or copy if someone is not familiar with combinators and basic logic) logics to start up large powerplants after the blackout. Maybe new pumps could be part of larger fluid dynamics overhaul in some phase.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Alice3173 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:43 pm

Hoeloe wrote:I would suggest to just make the normal offshorepump using electical power. To start off with electical power at T0 you could design some sort of a small offshoreburner/steamengine, which needs to placed offshore and needs coal to work (manually given or with inserters). This burner/engine could provide about 50-100kW or even less, just enough so you can start offshorepumps and inserters of the normal boilers, but are not viable for larger setups.
If I'm understanding you correctly I think this is mostly a moot point. Powering burner inserters is pretty easy all things considered. A stack of like 5ish coal powering each inserter should fairly easily be enough for you to get your power supply off the ground long enough for you to replace them with normal inserters.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by The_Mell » Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:14 pm

For an alternative setup i could think of a small windmill pump like this:
http://www.ironmanwindmill.com/how-windmills-work.htm

It would be automated, so no additional player interaction needed like current 'magically' pump, but it would also be a weak pump.
So it could be balanced vs an electrical in matters of needed space and, of course, ability to support boilers and steam engine.
For example: 1 windmill = 1-2 steam engines while 1 electric pump = 10 steam engines


This way we could have together with nuclear power a continuous steam upgrade system:
1) windmill, boilers and steam engine
2) electric pump
3) advanced boilers@100°(1 vs 8 boilers maybe?)
4) steam turbine with advanced boilers@400°
5) cooling tower retrieving old steam@80°
6) nuclear reactor@400° (1 vs x advanced boilers)



Even after these thoughts i must admit that 'magic pump' has simply some advantages because it is easy and cannot fail during a brown out or black out.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by wolfmanrawrs » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:21 pm

Instead of the above options, the pump could just count as gravity fed until power is applied. This would satisfy most sides of the argument and do two things.
- Low volume of water as a kick start without power
- Regular volume once electricity is applied

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by mexmer » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:52 pm

Hannu wrote: I think that if pumps will be changed there should be three models.

1. a burner pump with a capacity of maybe 20 units/s for beginning of the game and bootstrapping of power plants in later.
2. an electric pump like current offshore pump.
3. an expensive electric high capacity (300 units/s) pump for very large coal (and nuclear in future versions) powerplants. Maybe there should be higher capacity pipes too.
just fyi offshore pump has 10 unit pipe, and 1 u/s output. so 20/s burner pipe will be highly OP.

mind 1 offshore pump is just enough to feed 10 steam egines, since their consumption is 0.1u/s, because boiler conversion (or effectivity if you want ) is 0.6, you need ~14 boilers to produce enough steam for 10 boilers

if don't mind having 1.5u/s or even 2u/s electrical pump as stage 2 after research.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hannu » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:33 pm

mexmer wrote: just fyi offshore pump has 10 unit pipe, and 1 u/s output. so 20/s burner pipe will be highly OP.
Offshore pump pumps 60 units per second and steam engine uses 6 units per second. Refineries and chemical plants consume about 1/2 to 1 units per second and you can feed insane number of them from one offshore pump. I think that I have 2 pumps (or maybe 3) to feed 62 refineries and their cracking plants. You can easily verify it with a pump and a tank. Reading increases about 60 units per second.

So, I thought that first burner pump would be about 1/3-1/2 from current offshore pump. First electric pump would have same capacity and the largest pump about 5-10 times more.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by mexmer » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:01 pm

Hannu wrote:
mexmer wrote: just fyi offshore pump has 10 unit pipe, and 1 u/s output. so 20/s burner pipe will be highly OP.
Offshore pump pumps 60 units per second and steam engine uses 6 units per second. Refineries and chemical plants consume about 1/2 to 1 units per second and you can feed insane number of them from one offshore pump. I think that I have 2 pumps (or maybe 3) to feed 62 refineries and their cracking plants. You can easily verify it with a pump and a tank. Reading increases about 60 units per second.

So, I thought that first burner pump would be about 1/3-1/2 from current offshore pump. First electric pump would have same capacity and the largest pump about 5-10 times more.
going by data from definition file, tbh. have not measured it.

i don't think burner pump should have lower output than current one, should have same, eg. enough to feed 1 lane with 14 boilers and 10 engines. while electric should be able to pump more (1.5 or 2x), don't think extra large version is necessary, although for megabases, might be .
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by <NO_NAME> » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:28 am

@mexmer
pumping_speed = 1
I would interpret this as 1 unit per 1 game tick. It gives 60 u/s. The factorio wiki also is written that it is 60 u/s.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hannu » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:55 am

mexmer wrote:going by data from definition file, tbh. have not measured it.
Definition files defines things per game time step, which is 1/60 s at normal speed. However, it is more practical to calculate things per second when planning something.
i don't think burner pump should have lower output than current one, should have same, eg. enough to feed 1 lane with 14 boilers and 10 engines. while electric should be able to pump more (1.5 or 2x), don't think extra large version is necessary, although for megabases, might be .
There are many players and playstyles. I think that there should be large variety of stuff and if someone think that he do not need or do not like something he just do not use them. These values was fast guesses. Of course there are many other ways to choose them. I thought that the burner pump would be temporary and emergence pump only, as other burner things in my playstyle. But it would be also OK to decide that burner era should last longer and give more burner things. For example, burner assemblers comparable to gray ones and burner labs able to research only red science would probably work well and give more interesting beginning phase where you should earn basic electric stuff by making small burner powered factory first.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by mexmer » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:43 am

Hannu wrote:
mexmer wrote:going by data from definition file, tbh. have not measured it.
Definition files defines things per game time step, which is 1/60 s at normal speed. However, it is more practical to calculate things per second when planning something.
ah right, my bad, definitions are per tick, not per sec, totallly forgot about that. thanks ;)

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hoeloe » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:18 pm

ssilk wrote:So please tell me the difference between:

- Pump with burner
- Electric pump with burner steam-engine

Where is the difference - gameplay-wise?
To keep a factory running you need several offshorepumps not only for all the steamengines. That's why I don't like the burnerpump since you need to bring coal to every pump which ends up in a mess. For this reason I would prefer that the known offshorepump should use electic power to work (that would actually makes sence). But ingame thats a problem since you can't get electric power with T0 and without a running offshorepump.

And then there comes my suggestion: Offshorecoalboilersteamturbine (lolz)
It's a structure close to the water, where water could flow into a pool which is above a burner (boiler). Obviously it needs coal for burning. The produced steam would propel a turbine above which is connected to a generator. Tha's how we generate power! :D

Like allready noted, it should not generate a lot of power, maybe 50-100kW. Just enough to start off with electrical power so you can use them to power youre offshorepumps. This way it's not viable to build multible offshorecoalboilersteamturbine and run the whole factory with it. And it's absolutley no waterpump, it's a small powerplant.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:11 pm

Hoeloe wrote:Offshorecoalboilersteamturbine (lolz)
It's a structure close to the water, where water could flow into a pool which is above a burner (boiler). Obviously it needs coal for burning. The produced steam would propel a turbine above which is connected to a generator. Tha's how we generate power! :D
Burner Offshore-pump
It's a structure close to the water, where water could flow into a pool which is above a burner (boiler). Obviously it needs coal for burning. The produced steam would propel a turbine above which is connected to a pump. That's how we generate warm water.


See? That's why I ask the question about game-value and so on. Your suggestion makes things just more complex, without any value for the game.
See search.php?keywords=game+value&t=27087&sf=msgonly
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hoeloe » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:37 pm

ssilk wrote:See? That's why I ask the question about game-value and so on. Your suggestion makes things just more complex, without any value for the game.
See search.php?keywords=game+value&t=27087&sf=msgonly
Important note: The reason for my suggestion is your poll. I voted for "Maybe another solution..." Is there a game-value? No. It make things more complex. But I still don't like the fact that offshorepumps don't need power (Why should any engine run without power?). So I made a suggestion for: Folks want to have a "somehow powered offshorepump". And if so, there are only solutions that make the game more complex anyway, because everey addition makes a game more complex. But I think mine is verry easy and would make the game the least more complex. It would be a easy way to get power in early game.

If you go for burnerpumps, it would make it way more complex since you need to deliver coal to every pump you use.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hannu » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:46 pm

Hoeloe wrote:If you go for burnerpumps, it would make it way more complex since you need to deliver coal to every pump you use.
Water pumps are used only for boilers at the beginning. Boilers need fuel in any case. It would not be very complicated task to branch fuel to pump too. When player needs water for chemical plants he certainly have ability to use electric pumps.

What it gives to play. Factorio is the game of complex logistics and production chains. Powering of pumps would give more it in all phases of game. First they would need simple fuel belts and later they would need combinator logic (or some other systems) to make automatically booting large powerplants. In my opinion that would fit very naturally in Factorio as one detail, although it would not be game changing thing at all.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by OdinYggd » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:47 pm

Possible alternative solution:

Eliminate the offshore pump in favor of a water intake that has no pumping capacity at all, and has to be connected to a pump to produce any significant output.

Then you pair this with the following pump arrangements:

1. "Steam Powered Pump". This is effectively a burner pump, it would have a capacity from 6-15 units/s since it is meant only for kick-starting and flow metering. Constructing it should require along the lines of 2 pipes, a circuit, and a furnace.
2. "Small Electric Pump" These already exist in-game with a 30 unit/s capacity. Edit the recipe to no longer require electric motors, as they could easily be diaphram type pumps that operate with only a vibrating coil on a rubber sheet.
3. "Large Electric Pump" Adding this unit would give an on-shore electric pump of 60 unit/s capacity same as the existing offshore pump has. The recipie should probably be similar to the current small electric pump, requiring an electric motor to construct.

That would result in some interesting gameplay of itself:

1. Power stations would require proper provision for blackstart, adding a token amount of complexity to the gameplay puzzle without being needlessly tedious or overwhelming for new players.

2. The additional pump types would be available for other fluids as well, giving players some flexibility in designing their piping systems instead of having to design it all around the single current option for pumping fluids other than water.

In terms of maintaining backwards compatibility with previous game versions that did not include these changes, the offshore pump would be replaced by the water intake- but players would need to manually revisit their piping schemes to include the appropriate pumping solution to keep it operating properly.

Along similar lines though, I really badly need a valve in-game that is controlled by the circuit or by logi but doesn't require electricity to permit flow and can flow in both directions instead of only one...
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:10 pm

Hoeloe wrote:If you go for burnerpumps, it would make it way more complex since you need to deliver coal to every pump you use.
If you go for burnersteamengine, it would make it way more complex since you need to deliver coal to every steam-engine you use.

Hoeloe, I don't want to piss you off or so :) , what I do is still holding the mirror, that you see, that both suggestions are completely similar from game-play, but yours adds the complexity of needing to wire it from the burner-steam-engine to the pump. ;)
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by MeduSalem » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:54 pm

Well I obviously voted for maybe with hand/burner at startup and then electric to pick it up from there.

But that said... I already suggested multiple times that Factorio needs something like a general difficulty setting... in terms of gameplay complexity. Because with all the new players, the advanced and later the experts it is almost impossible to satisfy all of their needs/expectations with just one setting.

Like a Beginner mode where a lot is happening through "magic"... a Normal mode that is pretty much the middleground and the way it is currently, and an Expert Mode where stuff gets more serious because nothing runs through magic (including upkeep for offshore pumps, belts, etc). It could also affect research and recipes, because currently the game is quite frustrating for beginners and boring as hell for experts because the learning curve is logarithmic instead of exponential.

With a setting like that no one is forced to play it with the added complexity but it is there if you feel like taking the additional challenge. Also with the number of people supporting the additional complexity throughout the forum it would be ignorant to say that it's not worth additional development time (which doesn't mean it needs to be done by 0.16, it could be part of a later addon/expansion).
Last edited by MeduSalem on Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hoeloe » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:13 pm

ssilk wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:If you go for burnerpumps, it would make it way more complex since you need to deliver coal to every pump you use.
If you go for burnersteamengine, it would make it way more complex since you need to deliver coal to every steam-engine you use.

Hoeloe, I don't want to piss you off or so :) , what I do is still holding the mirror, that you see, that both suggestions are completely similar from game-play, but yours adds the complexity of needing to wire it from the burner-steam-engine to the pump. ;)
It's okay, you just do your job :P
If you go for a burnerpump (you need to explain me how they could work, since i don't even know how burner inserter work) I need to add, that the normal pump must remain.
Would it be bad when the game gets more complex? It also gets more complex with your idea, even if it's in a different way. Also i want to mention with my idea it would be possible to do a redundant powersupply for your electrict coal mining drills. That would actually make the game easier :P

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by bobucles » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:19 am

I think an energy pump would only add dumb clutter to the game. Burner inserters have their niche, but a burner pump is one of those things you build once and forget. As far as game changes go, you're making a player inconvenience(creating a factory shutdown disaster) to add in a nearly useless item. Um. WHY?

0/10 puzzle, would not solve.

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