Suggestion about a water pump.

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Darinth
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Darinth » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:51 pm

I'd have to honestly say that I'd rather that the current system simply be left intact as is. Yes, it's unrealistic, but I don't see a benefit to the change. The only change that I've seen suggested that I don't think would be particularly annoying would be to make the current pump able to both act as a burner pump if it's out or low on power and run on electricity otherwise. I really don't want to have to design a redundant pumping system to deal with potential brown-outs. Even the solution of utilizing a single pump that can switch modes means running additional belts over to jagged coastlines (or actually landfilling water bodies to provide straight coast lines) to make sure there's a consistent fuel supply for emergency fuel during brown-outs, which I'm honestly not a fan of. I could deal with it, but the pump is one of the earliest entities the plays will have to build to get power up and running, I'd say leave it as is.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Sad_Brother » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:49 pm

mrvn wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:44 pm
When you place down a burner inserter it has enough initial power to grab some fuel. Same could be used for pumps. When placed they pump some amount of water and then need fuel/electricity to continue. That way when you build your power plant and it gets some water, the boiler turns that into steam, the steam engine makes some electricity and the pump takes off.
That is an option.
But I would prefer a burner electrical source to feed your first pump or to power your whole base before you design and build solar panels and deep water wells.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by <NO_NAME> » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:56 am

Sad_Brother wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:49 pm
mrvn wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:44 pm
When you place down a burner inserter it has enough initial power to grab some fuel. Same could be used for pumps. When placed they pump some amount of water and then need fuel/electricity to continue. That way when you build your power plant and it gets some water, the boiler turns that into steam, the steam engine makes some electricity and the pump takes off.
That is an option.
But I would prefer a burner electrical source to feed your first pump or to power your whole base before you design and build solar panels and deep water wells.
It could be something based on thermoelectric effect to stick close to real physics.
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Offshore pump at start of game

Post by nosports » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:26 pm

May I have a suggestion for the Starting Setup of factorio

As the offshore water pump looks and feels like a powered pump, its even more logic that it should require a certain amount of electricity to work with.

I would suggest to add a coal powered pump to the game which could be crafted the same time as the boiler and then can be placed at the start.
It should barely support one boiler.

The ‘original’ offshore pump should require some electrcity and should be available as like now or with the advent of the electrcity-engine.

That would all be more logical and a little ramp up to the later game waterpump.

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by ikarikeiji » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:43 pm

+1

A very simple solution to a logic fail I've pondered over since the 0.10 days! :)

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:02 pm

Alternate route might be what AAI industry did :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/aai-industry
Image
Powered pump and low efficiency electricity-generating burner.
(No, I don't know why there's no power pole near the pump on that picture...)

But perhaps too involved for vanilla, especially now that efficiency has been set to 100% across the board ?

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by SyncViews » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:13 pm

Since there is nothing needing water before the player can build a boiler, as it stands doesn't really seem worth it. If the pump was to be powered, might as well have a bucket to tick the first boiler over.


A powered pump has other impacts like how it handles negative feedback from low power. This is either trivially handled by the game so it effectively doesn't matter and is the same as today (give pumps the highest priority) or could require some interesting thinking, especially if solar wasn't so easily available.

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by nosports » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:39 pm

SyncViews wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:13 pm
Since there is nothing needing water before the player can build a boiler, as it stands doesn't really seem worth it. If the pump was to be powered, might as well have a bucket to tick the first boiler over.
I know and i don't put up a fight over it... :P

But it just bites me.....

Was just a little though of ironing out this small inconsitency.

It would just close a little gap into the things between steam and electrity builds...

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by leadraven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:37 pm

I suggest to introduce steam power a little later in the game, and add another initial source of electricity - offshore mill. Requires nothing, produces ~100-200kw power. Thus first offshore pump could be powered with it.
I would like to make game start smoother, reduce the amount of starting recipes. Hide steam power, electric mining drills and possibly even circuits behind researches.

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by Ranakastrasz » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:48 pm

leadraven wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:37 pm
I suggest to introduce steam power a little later in the game, and add another initial source of electricity - offshore mill. Requires nothing, produces ~100-200kw power. Thus first offshore pump could be powered with it.
I would like to make game start smoother, reduce the amount of starting recipes. Hide steam power, electric mining drills and possibly even circuits behind researches.
Not the worst idea. Offshore specific power generator. Admittedly that sounds kinda powerful.

I do agree that starting with electricity stuff available makes burner stuff feel even worse than it does from inability to recycle.
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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by leadraven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:19 pm

Ranakastrasz wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:48 pm
I do agree that starting with electricity stuff available makes burner stuff feel even worse than it does from inability to recycle.
The main reason for starting electricity are labs - currently research is impossible without electricity. Burning labs would be insanity.
That's why I've made a suggestion to add manual research.

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:23 pm

Or Wind Turbines :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/KS_Power
Image
(Though they would have to be much worse than solar panels if available at start.)

Or a hand-crank generator ! :lol:
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/HandCrank
Image
and
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/HandCrankGenerator
(Might be a bit weird for vanilla experience though ?)

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by CDarklock » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:33 pm

Does nobody read Vitruvius anymore?
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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by Darinth » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:03 pm

CDarklock wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:33 pm
Does nobody read Vitruvius anymore?
Water screws still require power, which in the provided picture appears to be provided by flowing water. Really cool still, but not actually applicable to the situation. Putting one of these in a lake or similar would be non-functional. They can also be powered by wind. In factorio, burner power would make a good candidate.

What about a hybrid burner-electric pump? Runs on electricity if available, but will supplement electric power with burner power if the electricity gets too low? This is one of those little things that bothered me. Honestly... if it never got fixed I don't think I'd care and I probably care more about making sure that if it does get 'fixed' that the fix isn't really annoying to deal with. I'd probably never deal with actually running a belt of coal over to them, at worst give them a chest and manually fill it but probably just a single stack of coal at the start and they'd probably never run out for the practical purposes of a playthrough.

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by CDarklock » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:09 pm

Darinth wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:03 pm
Water screws still require power, which in the provided picture appears to be provided by flowing water.
Right. There are non-electric options to power the screw, is the point. The game just doesn't make you figure out what they are or how to find them. It handwaves the question by simply assuming an offshore pump can always be built to harness some natural energy source and pump water, whether it's currents or wind or geothermal or whatever.

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:24 pm

CDarklock wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:33 pm
Does nobody read Vitruvius anymore?
Yes, this is very cool, but the in-game pump looks nothing like that.
Also, (unlike for wind!), there is no water flowing mechanic anywhere*, even as visual candy.

*Well, except for the player-built pipes of course...

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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by Ranakastrasz » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:25 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:23 pm
Or Wind Turbines :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/KS_Power
Image
(Though they would have to be much worse than solar panels if available at start.)

Or a hand-crank generator ! :lol:
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/HandCrank
Image
and
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/HandCrankGenerator
(Might be a bit weird for vanilla experience though ?)
Having it be an offshore generator heaviliy restricts it though, due to requiring both water AND land right next to it.

Alternatively, make offshore pumps require coal or power or w.e. for full output, but always produce 10/second normally. So you get, admittedly more than a trickle, but nowhere near the 1200/s or whatever it is unless you provide power.

Or coal burner varient, or solar varient, or something.

Handcrank generator was fun, Windmills are too much like solar panels for them to really be a good addition.
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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by SyncViews » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:38 pm

Ranakastrasz wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:25 pm
Alternatively, make offshore pumps require coal or power or w.e. for full output, but always produce 10/second normally. So you get, admittedly more than a trickle, but nowhere near the 1200/s or whatever it is unless you provide power.
That would work nicely I think, with electricity to pump the full 1200. Better than a "bucket item" and not adding a building with very limited practical usefulness.

Assuming it has normal power priority, the player would need to be careful that satisfaction doesn't drop (negative feedback loop. less power, so less water, so less steam, so less power), but the game has options for that even without solar, another thing for the player to solve.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Koub » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:47 pm

[Koub] Merged multiple topics on the same (very old) subject.
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Re: Offshore pump at start of game

Post by Ranakastrasz » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:50 pm

SyncViews wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:38 pm

That would work nicely I think, with electricity to pump the full 1200. Better than a "bucket item" and not adding a building with very limited practical usefulness.

Assuming it has normal power priority, the player would need to be careful that satisfaction doesn't drop (negative feedback loop. less power, so less water, so less steam, so less power), but the game has options for that even without solar, another thing for the player to solve.
Best of all, you put a bunch of offshore pumps in, so that the trickle is larger. But the trickle is mainly there to help you jump start after a blackout.
That way, it never runs dry, but it also demands electricity to ramp up to full production. Honestly not much more than getting coal miners and inserters running again, or however you are doing it. And as always, solar panels can help jumpstart it.
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