Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Should the offshore pump need power and/or fuel to run?

Yes. Cause it would add more fun than it complicates things.
11
6%
No. It adds complexity without adding game-value; and eventually (not proven) it's game-killing for beginners.
55
28%
Yes. Cause the magic (missing emergence/technology jump) disturbs me.
12
6%
No. The game is emergent enough (any future technology looks like magic).
6
3%
Maybe, if the pump needs coal for kickstarting and electricity to run full powered.
24
12%
Maybe another solution, for example a burner-/hand-pump for the startup and an electric offshore pump...
72
37%
I don't know, just want to see the results.
15
8%
 
Total votes: 195

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Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:26 pm

Please read before you decide (you can change also your opinion):

1 and 3:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33385 Suggestion about a water pump.
- The disussion-thread that triggered this poll.

2 and 4:
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=21921 Poll: Should belts use energy (and Offshore Pumps etc...)
- Where the community polled in my opinion about the general topic of power usage for entites, that currently don't use power.
(it's also mentioned here: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=24061 New Types of Belts (And why they are NOT a Good Idea!) )
Deeper search around the offshore pump reveals astonishing-wise those threads:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27105 Conveyor Belts should require energy to function
Which resulted into:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21058 Conveyor belts optional using electricity

5:
I think this is the most important, cause that suggestion comes from a developer:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2058&p=15192#p15128
slpwnd wrote:Yeah, pump running "for free" is a bit strange. We might do something about this. Maybe have it run on electricity but also put a small burner inside for the kickstarting.
The coveyor belts are moving "for free" because it is a very elemental building block in the game and we reckoned that it would be annoying to build electric poles everywhere.
6: Is from these ideas:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5207&hilit=pump Early Power.
- where they suggested some kind of hand-pump
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21982 Concept: Engine/Generator Modules for Machines
- where they suggested motors as modules.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by aubergine18 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:37 pm

From modder perspective, having a pump that could take either coal or electricity to make it work would provide some interesting modding opportunities (it would allow us to make any building run on multiple fuel forms). But please also allow it to run without any power whatsoever (as there are places where mods will use offshore pumps as a sub-component of their main building and don't want to have to keep it stocked with magic coal/electricity).
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:01 pm

Indeed, that would be really interesting and it should not only work for the offshore pump, but for every assembler, refinery etc.
(I think to a burner as a module in the module-slots).
And that goes conform with ideas around different energy usage per item or recipes with different energy usage or ... a dozen of ideas around energy, pollution, speed, reliability etc.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by bobucles » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:56 pm

If you need water to make energy, and pumps need energy to make water, then you have a problem!

The main question here is what "tech 0" energy will be. Should there be a burner engine that doesn't use water? Should the player have some kind of manual generator or some kind of manual crank pump? Keep in mind that should your system shut down, you need to use this tech 0 energy source to start the pumps to start the steam to start it up again. This will remain a problem until solar power lets your factory restart with the sunrise.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:03 am

About that's what also written in the other poll about belts. :)
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Alice3173 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:50 am

slpwnd wrote:The coveyor belts are moving "for free" because it is a very elemental building block in the game and we reckoned that it would be annoying to build electric poles everywhere.
This could potentially be offset a bit by simply adding a power module that needs to be attached to each unique conveyor network that runs off a small amount of electricity or coal. Though if power requirements are added to a lot of things such as the conveyors and offshore pumps then the game would really need the addition of better power sources for the mid to late game. (Even more than it already does.)

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by aubergine18 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:00 am

Alice3173 wrote:
slpwnd wrote:The coveyor belts are moving "for free" because it is a very elemental building block in the game and we reckoned that it would be annoying to build electric poles everywhere.
This could potentially be offset a bit by simply adding a power module that needs to be attached to each unique conveyor network that runs off a small amount of electricity or coal. Though if power requirements are added to a lot of things such as the conveyors and offshore pumps then the game would really need the addition of better power sources for the mid to late game. (Even more than it already does.)
+1 for powered belts. To avoid it being cumbersome for players, maybe a specific "Belt driver" entity could be added: only one is required per network of belt entities. Place the driver next to an existing belt, and power the driver. Belts default to disabled. When belt driver receives or loses power, it tells adjacent belts that they are powered or not powered, thus enabling or disabling them. Each of those belts then tells their adjacent belts to be same enable/disable state. This way no extra work is required per tick, it's only when the belt driver entity changes powered state that any updates happen to belts. IIRC all entities, including belts, have an enabled/disabled state already, so in theory this wouldn't be too much pain to implement. That being said, what if player adds two belt drivers to two ends of a belt? If one is powered and the other is not, it could require extra processing when state changes because only one needs power for entire belt network. Gameplay comes first though - if it proves too cumbersome for player (having to make and place all the belt drives) then it should not be done. The belt driver could be a somewhat magical device, in that it could power several rows of belts and for any length.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by quadrox » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:56 am

I have a real hard time with this one.

On the one hand, yes, this really does bug me a lot. Everytime I build a pump it feels a bit like cheating.

The extra complication of having to deliver power to the pumpt would not bother me one bit. What would bother me is that I wouldn't be able to stop thinking about all the other things that work by magic or are unrealistic in some way (most important: belts) and would I want them fixed too? I think not.

So what's the solution? I have no clue.

My vote is probably "I could accept pumps requiring power - even belts probably - but I won't ask for it". This option doesn't really exist thought :)

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Koub » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:40 am

I'm not fond of "realism at all costs". I mean if I want realism, I have IRL, that's realistic (and not fun) enough for me. There are tons of things that are not realistic in the game that I find more shocking than "magic" driven offshore pumps, belts, train signals, ... , and there are many areas of the game I'd like to see improved before that small little thing.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by mexmer » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:33 am

thanks for the poll :D

tho' i'm not sure, if slaping hand/coal powered pump under one option is best.
people might not vote for it, because manual pumping might seem to be hassle.

i still voted for that, since it's closes option to what i suggested.

i think it was mistake to mention belts here tho' because lot of people will be distracted by belts, and forget about pump.

i just copypaste sum of changes for pump, i posted in linked topic
changes
@bobucles - hot air powered pump exists and i'm talking industry level, not toy for kits. there are places, where you can't use heated liquids (or steam)

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by bobingabout » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:39 am

Well... you NEED the pump to get power, so having it require power is a tricky solution.

From the modder perspective, I say that every entity that does something should have options to be electric powered, burner powered, Grid powered if it can have a grid, or not require power at all. Plus custom power, so you can make it run on oil as an example. That would open up a lot more modding possibilities.

For a base game solution, if you want it to need power, all I can really think is that you have 2 of them. a basic one (Say... provides a tenth the current one) that requires either no power, or burner power, and an advanced one (on par with the current one) that requires electricity.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:58 am

Thinking this through...

An electric pump is a bad idea to use for steam engines. With no power you can't power the pump to make power. So you'd have to have backup coal pumps but without electricity you can't use small pumps to manage the flow of water, therefore you'd only ever use coal pumps making the electric variety pretty much redundant.

However you WOULD want an electric pump to supply your oil processing because generally the closest coal is for making plastic which often isn't near your water supply. So either you have a type of item that most players only ever build one of, or you force them to supply coal to an entity with a fixed location that could be quite a way away from anything, but that won't even be using much of it. In most cases you could probably cut the source of coal and the pump would run for hours just on what's on the belt, it's overkill.

All this just to make the game a little more "realistic"? This is probably one of the more minor offences of the game, and "fixing" it would just make it a pain for everyone without adding anything to the gameplay.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:08 am

mexmer wrote: i think it was mistake to mention belts here tho' because lot of people will be distracted by belts, and forget about pump.
That is a valid opinion: you can just fix the pump and that's it. :)
But - believe me or not - that is not how Factorio devs work. They search always how a change can be done so that it has maximum effects vs. minimum costs. As bobcules said: a change of the abilities of the pump could be easily added to other devices, mainly the assembler. More or less my opinion.
And with that we suddenly have a mass of opportunities for modding.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by bobucles » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:13 pm

It IS possible to survive without belts until electricity shows up. Most of early game can be done by running burner machines directly into other burner machines with no belts involved.

It IS possible to have a system that automatically reboots under most situations using burner inserters and buffer chests.

Will it be FUN? I dunno. It's just a different kind of puzzle I guess.

I am of the personal opinion that the medium and high speed belts should use energy to work their high speed. Without energy they could stall or reduce to basic speed levels.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by mexmer » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:34 pm

bobucles wrote:It IS possible to survive without belts until electricity shows up. Most of early game can be done by running burner machines directly into other burner machines with no belts involved.

It IS possible to have a system that automatically reboots under most situations using burner inserters and buffer chests.

Will it be FUN? I dunno. It's just a different kind of puzzle I guess.

I am of the personal opinion that the medium and high speed belts should use energy to work their high speed. Without energy they could stall or reduce to basic speed levels.
that interesting idea, regarding belts, although i really want to put belt discussion somewhere else.

i always though that belts have some kind of mechanical connection to whatever structure they transfer from/to - so that's their source of moving force (in most cases it's inserters, or drills), but express belts indeed might have more requirements.
mind also current belts doesn't have wiring for electricity. so how you will "power" them anyways, without external unit? ;) anyway ... it's different theme for discussion.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Maharin » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:59 pm

Thought: If connected items of a network were automatically considered electrically connected then you'd only need power poles to join two disconnected networks. This would cut down on the arrangement of messy poles all over the place.

So... for belts this means you'd only need one electrical connection at either end or have them connected to another device that is connected to the electrical network. The same could be said for pumps or any other device in the network that connects to other devices. I'm not sure if pipes should be included in this, though.

The problem then, from my perspective, is how to jump start the whole system as was already noted. Adding a "connectable" hand crank or other electrical producer fed by something other than electricity would add another solution to the problem. Currently, I just drop a piece of coal into one of the burners in my system to get things going (or several if needed). It's clunky, but workable. If I'm past my need of water to generate electricity then I wait until morning and attempt to fix the problem so it doesn't happen again.

Another thought... what about adding module support to the pumps and add a "battery module" that gives them the ability to jump start themselves and then recharge their battery for later downtime? Or give them an initial boost like the burner inserter has that needs to be replenished?

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Terukio » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:45 pm

In regards to the poll please keep in mind:
When asking closed-ended questions, the choice of options provided, how each option is described, the number of response options offered and the order in which options are read can all influence how people respond.

http://www.pewresearch.org/methodology/ ... re-design/
In response to powering the pump via coal being trivial the same could be said for powering the boilers with coal.

Sure people may only use the entity a few times and never use it again when converting to solar, but does that mean it shouldn't be in the game? I can think of a couple other entities used only a few times and never again such as the iron pickax, fish, wooden crates, wooden power poles etc.

In my opinion, Factorio is a game about logistic puzzles that need to be solved...and what better place to put a trivial puzzle to solve than at the beginning of the game?

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by PacifyerGrey » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:48 pm

I think the best way would be some sane progress. Like burner pump - electrical pump - pump station. And they are limited to some value of throughput.
Btw Burner pump makes a lot of sense and fits well into starter steam electricity production as you will feed boilers anyways.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hannu » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:09 am

Why not. If there was a burner pump, it would be relatively easy to feed it with coal at beginning by just branching the line from boilers. Later in the game player could do a separate emergency power unit from a burner pump, a boiler and a steam engine and use it to kickstart the large power plant with suitable circuit conditions and power switches. In my opinion such an automation would fit perfectly in the game like Factorio. If it is too demanding for average player, at least possibility to mod pumps to use energy would be nice (I do not know is it possible now).

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hoeloe » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:27 am

I would suggest to just make the normal offshorepump using electical power. To start off with electical power at T0 you could design some sort of a small offshoreburner/steamengine, which needs to placed offshore and needs coal to work (manually given or with inserters). This burner/engine could provide about 50-100kW or even less, just enough so you can start offshorepumps and inserters of the normal boilers, but are not viable for larger setups.
Last edited by Hoeloe on Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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