Electric Trains

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CentricArts
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Electric Trains

Post by CentricArts » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:50 pm

A concept that I would like to see in the game is electronic trains to prevent having to use entire systems to implement coal into your ''diesel'' engine. (Personally I would prefer them to be just Steam engines) From there, you could use electronic poles next to your railway or some other form of system which implements electricity to your railway, much like how actual railways work in the real world. As the game generally tries to move you away from creating pollution by using other costly recourses to make solar panels and electronic furnaces, why not electronic trains?

Another side note to this as ''Diesel'' engines use up a lot of coal, I would like them to use up a lot more coal in order to make the system more expensive to run. Alongside that, they should also create a low amount of pollution in order for trains to become an aggravation point for aliens. With this in mind you need to actually spend more recourses in order to defend your railways. With the implementation of electronic railways in my original suggestion, you wouldn't require to protect your trains. So instead of having to spend recourses defending your railway and loading a ton of coal into your train, use more recourses in order to produce the electronic railway.

From there depending on what you want your railway to do you can decide if you want to use ''Diesel'' or electronic depending on the costs as electronic railways would become expensive for long distances but easier to protect and coal is good for short distances but hard to protect due to the difference in recourses required.

And electronic railways from steam ones is another technology, additionally another sense of progression within your factory and actually adds more management in your factory and make railways not as cheap as they currently are to maintain and create.
Last edited by ssilk on Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed title; electric, not electronic
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Re: Electronic Trains

Post by aubergine18 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:58 pm

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Re: Electronic Trains

Post by OdinYggd » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:22 pm

This kind of thing is often suggested, and I've brought it up myself a few times.

What would be practically ideal in my mind would be the addition of 2 steam engines for early and mid game, then in late game an electric becomes available

Initially when you research the railroad tech, you are given access to a Ten Wheeler steam engine. I'd recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_No._3 being the basis of the model- this is the engine that starred in Back to the Future III, along with many other classic westerns. It is literally the movie star engine, and would be quite recognizeable as the pattern. Implementation though, it only runs at perhaps 75 km/h max and is not strong enough to pull more than 1-2 cars at a time.

As the game progresses, you would unlock a much larger "Berkshire" locomotive, with capacities similar to the current diesel but a top speed of only 120km/h. For the model I would suggest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pere_Marquette_1225. Pere Marquette 1225 is the engine that inspired the polar express book, and was the basis for the engine in the movie. Designed for fast freight, a Berkshire would be a good fit for the needs of Factorio railways with its ability to handle speed and power quite easily, all while looking and sounding like a locomotive should.

Towards the end of the game though, your railways have become lengthy, and the need to provide coal to the engines complicates logistics. So a new tech would become available to electrify the rails, and support a high speed electric locomotive. Not only would this engine be able to carry as many as 6-8 cars vs the typical 4 of the current diesel, but it would be able to do so at speeds exceeding 250km/h and without requiring fuel logistics. I don't have a recommended design to use here, since in my mind steam is the eternal king of the rails, but I would suggest selecting a locomotive model that is highly recognizable.
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Re: Electronic Trains

Post by aubergine18 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:48 pm

A nice bestiary of rail (and other) vehicles can be found here: http://www.transportfever.com/game-info/vehicles/ (page takes forever to load, but once loaded you can click on Rail filter to see just the trains).

I'd like to see a small but "much faster than walking" early steam train to help player move around map via rail, possibly a Baldwin's Six-Wheels at 30 km/h, or Borsig at 40 km/h? IMO player transport would be a good way to introduce rail network prior to setting it up for resource transport.

For mid-game diesel, a EMD SD40-2 would be an iconic train to include. People would instantly recognise it from games like Train Fever, Sid Meier's Railroads, etc. An EMD GP 9 is another good iconic diesel locomotive.

For late game, something like a Class 185 which is diesel/electric hybrid, and fast speed with good traction, would benefit from being able to use both electrified tracks and standard tracks, enabling the player to use it while they complete their rail upgrades.

Once player has got all their rails upgraded, they could start using locomotives such as Class 103.1, EMD AEM-7 or HHP 8 which all have speeds around 200 km/h.

The length of locomotives could start small with early steam, elongate in diesel and hybrid era, and then start shrinking again with late electric. This would require some refactoring of train stations to reposition inserters, etc., it would require some strategising as to which rail networks to upgrade, what locomotives to use and so on. Ideally players would be using a mix of locomotives in late game, depending on track upgrades, available space and fuel, etc.
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Re: Electronic Trains

Post by CentricArts » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:29 am

I like the idea of this, but I feel like it's done poorly as you require having to use batteries instead of an electronic network around your train line in order to generate electricity for your trains. Trains don't really work like that in real life. you don't just put a generator on a train to keep recharging the batteries or just use a huge battery to power it for a period of time.
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Re: Electronic Trains

Post by CentricArts » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:31 am

aubergine18 wrote:A nice bestiary of rail (and other) vehicles can be found here: http://www.transportfever.com/game-info/vehicles/ (page takes forever to load, but once loaded you can click on Rail filter to see just the trains).

I'd like to see a small but "much faster than walking" early steam train to help player move around map via rail, possibly a Baldwin's Six-Wheels at 30 km/h, or Borsig at 40 km/h? IMO player transport would be a good way to introduce rail network prior to setting it up for resource transport.

For mid-game diesel, a EMD SD40-2 would be an iconic train to include. People would instantly recognise it from games like Train Fever, Sid Meier's Railroads, etc. An EMD GP 9 is another good iconic diesel locomotive.

For late game, something like a Class 185 which is diesel/electric hybrid, and fast speed with good traction, would benefit from being able to use both electrified tracks and standard tracks, enabling the player to use it while they complete their rail upgrades.

Once player has got all their rails upgraded, they could start using locomotives such as Class 103.1, EMD AEM-7 or HHP 8 which all have speeds around 200 km/h.

The length of locomotives could start small with early steam, elongate in diesel and hybrid era, and then start shrinking again with late electric. This would require some refactoring of train stations to reposition inserters, etc., it would require some strategising as to which rail networks to upgrade, what locomotives to use and so on. Ideally players would be using a mix of locomotives in late game, depending on track upgrades, available space and fuel, etc.
This seems really wasteful just to get around slightly quicker early game. People probably just won't use that kind of system because it takes up tons of space, tons of recourses and only gives you a slight advantage over walking. You might as well just rush the engine research and make a car instead.
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Re: Electric Trains

Post by ssilk » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:17 am

Please understand the difference:
Electronic: Something complex, that works with electronic circuits, process signals etc. The circuit network is in my opinion electronic.
Electric: A machine, that works with electric power.

I fixed the thread title and added it to viewtopic.php?f=80&t=17734 New types of vehicles (train, tank, car, plane, ship...)
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Re: Electronic Trains

Post by mknejp » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:22 pm

CentricArts wrote:
I like the idea of this, but I feel like it's done poorly as you require having to use batteries instead of an electronic network around your train line in order to generate electricity for your trains. Trains don't really work like that in real life. you don't just put a generator on a train to keep recharging the batteries or just use a huge battery to power it for a period of time.
As the maker of those mods I agree, although there are battery-driven locomotives they are usually special purpose like maintenance or construction trains where electricity supply is not (yet) present or disabled. Using batteries is the only way I managed to find that wouldn't significantly slow down the game. If the game had electrified rails then players could have the two alternatives to chose between batteries or direct supply, potentially one as an upgrade to the other or as alternatives where each has a benefit the other doesn't have.

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Re: Electronic Trains

Post by OdinYggd » Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:19 pm

mknejp wrote:
CentricArts wrote:
I like the idea of this, but I feel like it's done poorly as you require having to use batteries instead of an electronic network around your train line in order to generate electricity for your trains. Trains don't really work like that in real life. you don't just put a generator on a train to keep recharging the batteries or just use a huge battery to power it for a period of time.
As the maker of those mods I agree, although there are battery-driven locomotives they are usually special purpose like maintenance or construction trains where electricity supply is not (yet) present or disabled. Using batteries is the only way I managed to find that wouldn't significantly slow down the game. If the game had electrified rails then players could have the two alternatives to chose between batteries or direct supply, potentially one as an upgrade to the other or as alternatives where each has a benefit the other doesn't have.
Would it be possible to make a plug-in hybrid train?

Take something similar to the existing diesel, but add the following:

1. The train has a large internal battery that is charged up while standing at the station.

2. On departure, it attempts to prioritize the battery. Moving in this mode, it produces no pollution.

3. When the battery reaches approximately 25% remaining, it will begin burning fuel if there is some in the slots. In this mode any energy not added to the train's momentum is instead used to charge the battery back up. The train produces pollution in this mode.

4. When the train is fuel-burning and the battery reaches 75%, the train stops burning fuel and again goes to all-electric pollution free propulsion. Like so it will minimize fuel consumption by recharging that last 25% using the station-provided power.

This would get you basically a plug in hybrid operation that would allow the simplified logistics of electric trains for short routes, while retaining the service range of the current fuel burning diesel that is necessary for routes too long to be served by batteries alone.

I still would rather ditch the diesel for steam, but a plug in hybrid might be an ideal mid-late game solution until such time that a way is found to properly electrify the rails without making the game miserable.
In my mind, Steam is the eternal king of the railway.

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Re: Electronic Trains

Post by CentricArts » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:50 pm

OdinYggd wrote:
mknejp wrote:
CentricArts wrote:
I like the idea of this, but I feel like it's done poorly as you require having to use batteries instead of an electronic network around your train line in order to generate electricity for your trains. Trains don't really work like that in real life. you don't just put a generator on a train to keep recharging the batteries or just use a huge battery to power it for a period of time.
As the maker of those mods I agree, although there are battery-driven locomotives they are usually special purpose like maintenance or construction trains where electricity supply is not (yet) present or disabled. Using batteries is the only way I managed to find that wouldn't significantly slow down the game. If the game had electrified rails then players could have the two alternatives to chose between batteries or direct supply, potentially one as an upgrade to the other or as alternatives where each has a benefit the other doesn't have.
Would it be possible to make a plug-in hybrid train?

Take something similar to the existing diesel, but add the following:

1. The train has a large internal battery that is charged up while standing at the station.

2. On departure, it attempts to prioritize the battery. Moving in this mode, it produces no pollution.

3. When the battery reaches approximately 25% remaining, it will begin burning fuel if there is some in the slots. In this mode any energy not added to the train's momentum is instead used to charge the battery back up. The train produces pollution in this mode.

4. When the train is fuel-burning and the battery reaches 75%, the train stops burning fuel and again goes to all-electric pollution free propulsion. Like so it will minimize fuel consumption by recharging that last 25% using the station-provided power.

This would get you basically a plug in hybrid operation that would allow the simplified logistics of electric trains for short routes, while retaining the service range of the current fuel burning diesel that is necessary for routes too long to be served by batteries alone.

I still would rather ditch the diesel for steam, but a plug in hybrid might be an ideal mid-late game solution until such time that a way is found to properly electrify the rails without making the game miserable.
This is a really cool idea.

Maybe make the current coal based engines actually steam engines, diesel require oil and hybrid or electric run from electricity. But as the backup for the hybrid, use up oil or coal.

If you didn't scrap the entire diesel engine asset and just make it require oil instead of coal. And as the developers are potentially implementing an oil tanker car, you obviously require a new pump like the one they already shown in the friday facts. You could just use the new pump to implement oil into the diesel engines as their use is moving liquids around and putting liquids in and out of things.

And to charge the electric trains, you could just use the same system but with electricity instead. So just something that connects to the train when it stops. This will require a similar asset to the diesel engine but more cleaner like the solar panel.

Then obviously the steam train will work like the current diesel and just use a different asset to make it actually a steam engine instead of this so called diesel.

So for people who have oil to burn but want to make their trains faster, they can use diesel trains with a heavy pollution factor. Electricity for those who don't want to burn nonrenewable resources in return for no pollution. However, the train would be slower and not as strong towards pulling tons of wagons and the steam engine creates pollution, but light pollution unlike the diesel.
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