inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

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sparr
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inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by sparr »

If an inserter has a stack size bonus, so it could grab two items from a chest, then when it grabs one item from a conveyor it might check to see if its target wants more than one of that item, and if so AND if there's a second item within grabbing distance then grab a second one.

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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by Darthlawsuit »

How do you physically put 2 gears in the same location? If it does but staggers them then it will push other gears around and become a chaotic mess. Coding for that seems like a mess.

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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by ssilk »

Well, I could imagine that:
- inserter takes from chest and
- places item by item on belt as is roll through.
- then takes the next.

Disadvantage:
- logically it must work identical in the other direction.
- inserter waits, until it's hand-stack is full,
- and then it turns and puts it into the assembly.

The problem with that is: it takes eventually very long, until the hand is full and if the destination is also a belt it needs to wait (see above) to place all.

That is in end effect not faster, than just take piece by piece and/or use more inserters.
It is also much more continuous and I see the belt system advantage especially in its continuousity (substantive of continuously, is that the right writing?).

And I don't see the need. The inserters are not thought for super high speed transport from chest to belt or the way around. They are thought to feed/unload the assemblers/furnaces/chests continously. Not fast. Speed comes by parallelization. Like with computers.
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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by sparr »

Darthlawsuit wrote:How do you physically put 2 gears in the same location? If it does but staggers them then it will push other gears around and become a chaotic mess. Coding for that seems like a mess.
Two gear entities would never exist in the same location. They would be 0.28 units apart on the belt, as usual. After the inserter picks up one, it would have two options:

1) go to the destination and drop one gear, as usual

2) go to the location of the next gear on the belt, pick it up. that pick up would result in a single stack of two gears, not two separate gears, in the inserter's "hand".

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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by ratchetfreak »

The throughput bottleneck on inserters is swing speed.

With the change in belt mechanics it's possible:

When going for the pickup on a belt the inserter checks the lines for items if more than one are there it will sweep up them all and then put it in the chest/whatever. If only 1 is there it'll pick up the one to insert (no waiting on items that may never come).

when dropping on a belt just drops from the hand 1 at a time until the hand is empty.

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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by ssilk »

Well, that solves most of the problems.
The problem is still the throughput because of the rotation / swing speed: You cannot guarantee a continuous throughput with just one or two inserters.

So, instead of inserters I suggest a new device, that is able to "suck" or "blow" items from belt to a storage/chest or vice versa. It may look either like a big vacuum cleaner or a funnel/hopper. (I think if you search for funnel/hopper/vacuum you may find some suggestions). Maybe it looks different, depending on the used direction.

It can pickup/fill even express belts with full compression, because no rotation is needed, there are nearly no moving parts in this device.

There are mods, which already can do similar stuff and I think they are useful, cause the alternatives by using inserters are looking always clunky/big/useless: you need 10 inserters to pick up/fill the contents of a fast belt. and it could have the interesting tweak, that inserting it onto a belt doesn't prefer the near or far side. Which will make the usage together with the inserters sometimes complex. ;)
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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by ratchetfreak »

ssilk wrote:Well, that solves most of the problems.
The problem is still the throughput because of the rotation / swing speed: You cannot guarantee a continuous throughput with just one or two inserters.

So, instead of inserters I suggest a new device, that is able to "suck" or "blow" items from belt to a storage/chest or vice versa. It may look either like a big vacuum cleaner or a funnel/hopper. (I think if you search for funnel/hopper/vacuum you may find some suggestions). Maybe it looks different, depending on the used direction.

It can pickup/fill even express belts with full compression, because no rotation is needed, there are nearly no moving parts in this device.

There are mods, which already can do similar stuff and I think they are useful, cause the alternatives by using inserters are looking always clunky/big/useless: you need 10 inserters to pick up/fill the contents of a fast belt. and it could have the interesting tweak, that inserting it onto a belt doesn't prefer the near or far side. Which will make the usage together with the inserters sometimes complex. ;)
that would eliminate inserters from/to belts

I disagree with doing that. I just want to make a no buffer train loading system viable. For that you need the stack size bonus to work with belts.

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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by ssilk »

ratchetfreak wrote:I just want to make a no buffer train loading system viable. For that you need the stack size bonus to work with belts.
I see what you want. :) What I also see is, that this usage case is very special and brings also some disadvantages. Which is not good, cause a good reason to add something new into the game means in most cases to have more than one good reason. :)
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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by ratchetfreak »

ssilk wrote:
ratchetfreak wrote:I just want to make a no buffer train loading system viable. For that you need the stack size bonus to work with belts.
I see what you want. :) What I also see is, that this usage case is very special and brings also some disadvantages. Which is not good, cause a good reason to add something new into the game means in most cases to have more than one good reason. :)
it'll also help other times where high throughput between belt and machine is needed (feeding copper wire assemblers for example)

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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by Ranakastrasz »

When dropping, it drops them in anywhere on the correct side of the belt. If it runs out of room, it waits until room exists. once it runs out of items, it swings back and gets a new load.
When picking up, it goes over the whole tile. If it gets less than the required amount, it waits around a second, then, if it still isn't at cap, it swings around and drops it off.

There is no reason to think that the inserter couldn't hold 5 items, seeing as it already can do so when transferring between chests or train cars.
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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by orzelek »

On one hand - I'd really like the idea. It would make working with belts a lot easier - and I do have thousands of belts in my games.
It would also give new function to inserter stacking upgrades.

On the other hand - I'm not sure how complex this would be to code - stuff like inserters adding potentially an object to already existing object on belt would need to be possible.

I'm not sure how you would get those stacks on belts actually - unless it would be possible only when taking items out of chest. Items that are produced in multiples could also work with this.

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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by ssilk »

It is a very good question, if this is really wanted or needed. I think it is an interesting learning process for a player to see suddenly, that he needs for that case more inserters. This is one of the many small things, that give the game it's charm.

But well, this is a good question: how much % of the players really want to use that? Or like it more as it currently is...
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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by Ranakastrasz »

A lot of the people here seem to think items on the conveyerbelt would stack. The OP doesn't say that. It only says that the inserter itself, when moving items from or to a box will be able to carry more than one item, and then drop them as normal.
Essentially, it would pick up a stack from a chest, swing around, and drop them as soon as a space opens. Once it runs out, it swings back. The result being that it can transfer items to the belt moderately faster, with less swing time slowing it down.

Same in reverse, except you would want it to wait around a half second after it runs out of stuff to pick up, in case more slides into range.
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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by codewarrior »

I like the idea, but I'd phrase it as another kind of specialized inserter: The Big-Handed Inserter, meant for moving lots of items onto or off of conveyor belts. You can unlock this guy with the first rank of Inserter Stack Size Bonus.

Unlike other inserters, he'll pick up an entire handful of items, even when he's pointed at a belt. He'll wait over the belt and drop them into gaps in the conveyor, or drop them all at once if the conveyor is empty. He will drop items onto both sides of a belt, because his big hand is too clumsy to aim at only one side. If you rotate him the other way, he'll scoop up all of the items on both sides of the belt, without regard to what he's pointed at and whether it will accept those items. He's just that clumsy. Even if he's as slow as a regular long-handed inserter, he'll still have a much greater throughput over the more dextrous inserters when loading and unloading belts.

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Re: inserter stack size bonus could apply to conveyors

Post by ssilk »

Yeah, this is quite similar to this: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 19#p104069
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