Factorio Forums

ratchetfreak wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:40 am

It's the same mechanism that I see in firefox when you try and close the tab and the website has a "don't leave me" dialog.

One of the first "features" that i disable.

Are you sure you want to close the window?
Are you sure you want to delete the file?
These nag screens only condition users to press enter whenever something pops up without reading.
Those same users are perplexed as to how a Trojan installed itself on their machine.

Force users to think before acting!

Optera wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:13 am

Force users to think before acting!

I AGREE! I MYSELF AM A HUMAN AND I NEVER MAKE ANY MISTAKES. MY OTHER HUMAN FRIENDS ALSO NEVER MAKE MISTAKES. THEY DEFRAGMENT AND CHECK FOR CORRUPTION IN REGULAR BASIS. IF SOME HUMAN OCCASIONALLY MAKE MISTAKES, IT IS A SIGN OF A SERIOUS SYSTEM MALFUNCTION. SUCH HUMAN HAVE BE REINSTALLED AND HE SHOULD PERFORM FULL HARDWARE DIAGNOSIS.

I run Factorio on Linux Mint, Standalone Version.
While I play Factorio in windowed mode, I can close the window with the X-Button on top right. It just closes the window without warning or autosave and I assume it's intended behaviour, because the log file does not say anything about an error. (see log in attachment). I didn't check MS-Windows version, if it behaves differently

My suggestion is, to bring a warning, that there are unsaved progress before closing, because it can be clicked accidentally (which happened to me yesterday)

Catching and processing the click on the X needs more code than just disabling the X-button...

OK, searched for the wrong words Thanks for merging.
Hiding the close-button sounds nice, too. It's maybe possible in linux to configure for a certain app, but not that easy, it seems.

Upon clicking on the "close window", the window manager sends a signal to the app saying "you were requested to close". The app can close without warning or further notice (as Factorio now), or have a more user friendly behaviour (call whatever routine is called when you do Esc => Quit Game) :
I obviously would like the latter best.

Yes, exactly. If nothing is to be saved, it can close like before.

steinio wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:36 pm

Catching and processing the click on the X needs more code than just disabling the X-button...

not really, putting asides multiplayer, game will just "pause" on clicking X, then show warning ... nothing complicated needs to be implemented.

tbh. lot of games i play warns you, if you use ALT+F4 or close button, if there is any "unsaved" progress. and doesn't close immediately.

while i use 5 min autosave, so loss is not much big ... it still might be loss, so having such option, will be nice.

Yet another derailed forum post. Dead-simple request, then someone confuses the issue by assuming the intention of the OP is to avoid losing game data, allowing the idea to be rejected with "it won't let you quit so easily if there isn't a recent save." Then someone else brings up Alt-F4. Then the idea gets rejected because the devs don't want a confirm on Alt-F4, which, I wouldn't either as Alt-F4 is where I go to quick-close programs I'm developing, but even with Alt-F4, the devs could get what they want too with an "ask if I really want to quit" option in a config menu. So that's not really a reason to reject the idea.

...but, never mind all of that, because it misses the point. The thread isn't about losing game data, or doing away with the dev's ability to quickly close the game while developing it. It's about being in the technology menu and meaning to click the X at the top-right corner that closes the technology menu but accidentally click the X at the top-right corner that closes the whole game.


They're only 37.6 pixels away from each other. It's an easy mistake to make.

This only became a problem for me in the last few weeks. A friend wanted to play Space Exploration, so we've been doing that, and it has a lot of menus it creates that, unlike the game's built-in menus like the technology screen, you can't just press escape to get out of them. You have to use that X icon. So I've gotten into the habit of using the X icon, which has led to me using it for the game's built-in menus, which becomes a problem because some of them take up the whole screen, putting the X icon to close that menu right next to the X icon that closes the whole game. I've accidentally clicked the wrong one like 20 times in the technology screen, and a couple of times while editing a blueprint.

Now, when I click the wrong one, do I lose my game? No. I'm playing on a server so the game is never lost. However, I do have to restart the game (about 20 seconds), reconnect to the server, download the map (about 2 minutes), catch up (another 2 minutes) and in all I've lost about 5 minutes of game-playing time. It doesn't lead to lost data, but it leads to a lot of lost time, which is just as important as data.

I think I've done this a dozen times now, so 4.5 minutes per restart and I've lost 54 minutes of play time to this problem so far.

I know the devs may not feel the need for the feature themselves, but great apps are all about options. Just add an "ask if I really want to quit" option to a menu, and people like me can turn it on, and people like I was a month ago, who don't have this problem, can leave it turned off. Then the game will do what is best for everyone instead of only what is best for half of everyone.

...and maybe see if you can do something about the escape key not closing mod's menus while you're at it. That might be harder problem to solve, but it would allow me to happily return to never clicking any X icons and would thus allow me to never have the annoyance of having to click "no" on any "are you sure you want to quit" dialogues. In the meantime though, I'd much prefer the annoyance of having to click "no" when asked "are you sure you want to quit" to the annoyance of restarting the game, redownloading the map, and recatching up.


Again, only 37.6 pixels, and look at how incredibly similar those two X icons are. They're practically the same size and shape. This is a dead-simple mistake to make, if you're actually using the X icons to close windows. I'm sure that a dev who doesn't play mods and thus can happily exit any menu by pressing escape, who probably also plays full-screen (I assume since full-screen is quite-annoyingly the default on a fresh install) and so their window manager's X isn't even on the screen while they play, and who frequently needs to quit the game while developing it and doesn't want to click "yes" in a confirmation dialogue a hundred times a day, probably doesn't see the need for a confirmation, but you have to keep in mind that not everyone uses your software the same way that you use it, and config options allow everyone to get what they want out of a piece of software. Adding config options is easy, and apparently the game will already confirm if there's no recent save, so the dialogue is mostly written. Just need to add a config option that makes that dialogue pop up no matter what. This is like a 5-minute coding task. Just 5 minutes of work and you'll save me the 54 minutes of restart/reconnect time I'm likely to experience in the next month and probably years restart/reconnect time when you sum up the entire player base's experience over the rest of the life of the game. I just don't understand the resistance to this option as it's so obviously a necessary feature when you think about it like that. Indeed, the time people are going to waste reading this debate about whether the feature should exist is greater than the time it would take to implement it.

Yeah, I support the idea that if you click the X icon in the upper right in windowed mode it should ask to confirm on quit. As pointed out, some windows go full screen and have their X button right next to the main game's X button (in windowed mode), so it's easy as hell to accidentally click the wrong one. And it should be an actual confirm to quit, not a check on if it's already been saved and only confirm if it hasn't.

Alt-F4 (and other OS equivalents) should be left as is, though. This allows the option, without needing to put yet another option in the settings menu, of quitting now without prompt. This is a purposeful keystroke, and thus have a purposeful result, unlike the X button that can be clicked by accident, and thus should be confirmed if you meant to.

Moosfet wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:15 pm

A friend wanted to play Space Exploration, so we've been doing that, and it has a lot of menus it creates that, unlike the game's built-in menus like the technology screen, you can't just press escape to get out of them. You have to use that X icon.

Almost all Space Exploration GUIs support E/Escape to close though? The only ones I can think of that don't are the new life support pop-up GUI (which doesn't by design because then you wouldn't be able to open it at the same time as another GUI, e.g. an inventory GUI) and the navsat GUI (which is more of a different 'mode' than just a GUI so shouldn't respond to E/Escape). If there are others that you think aren't working as they should, I'd be interested to know which ones, either here or on the SE discord.

Moosfet wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:15 pm

...and maybe see if you can do something about the escape key not closing mod's menus while you're at it.

It is entirely up to the mod to implement this, and the game provides a nice way for them to do so (LuaPlayer.opened + on_gui_closed). It wouldn't be appropriate for the game to handle it directly because not all modded GUIs should be able to be closed with E/Escape (think small info GUIs along the side).

Xorimuth wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:26 pm

If there are others that you think aren't working as they should, I'd be interested to know which ones, either here or on the SE discord.

I think it was actually just the navsat that did it to me. If you press escape when it is open, it just brings up the game's escape menu. If you press N while it's open, sometimes it closes, unless you're in the map, then it stays open and moves your location. ...and when you're in the map or in the navsat isn't always obvious. If I'm on the same planet, whether I'm using the navsat or not, the map looks exactly the same, and if I zoom in to where I see the actual surface, it's a lot like god mode.

So non-navsat+map, navsat+map, and navsat modes all look about the same. So if scrolling around placing some blueprints and then I want to go back to player mode, what do I do? If I'm just in the map, I press escape. If I'm in the navsat, pressing escape brings up the escape menu. If I'm in the navsat, I need to press N. However, if I'm just zoomed in on the map, pressing N opens the navsat. If I'm in the navsat and viewing the map, I need to press M and then N. However, if I'm in the navsat and not viewing the map, that will open the map and then move my location to where I'm already at, effectively doing nothing.

The result is that I often find myself having to attempt to return to character mode several times before I actually succeed. OTOH, if I just look for and then click that X, I always end up back in character mode. So I've learned to do that, as it takes less time and thought than using any of the keyboard shortcuts, as they all do something different depending on which mode I'm in.

I don't understand why map view is separate from surface view in god mode. It made more sense when you couldn't zoom in on the map and view the actual surface and use construction/deconstruction planners on it, which is almost a god view. Now that you can, it seems like map view and god mode could be unified. Just zoom out enough and you see the map instead of the surface, and zoom in enough and you're out of the map and back in god mode, positioned wherever you zoomed in. IDK if the mod can make that happen, I assume not, but if so it would solve half of the confusion I'm having. Usually the only reason I go into the map in god mode is that moving long distances is otherwise difficult since it's only possible to zoom out so far. If zooming out further just put me in map view and zooming back in put me back in god mode, it'd be super easy to move around.

FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:47 pm

Alt-F4 (and other OS equivalents) should be left as is, though. This allows the option, without needing to put yet another option in the settings menu, of quitting now without prompt. This is a purposeful keystroke, and thus have a purposeful result, unlike the X button that can be clicked by accident, and thus should be confirmed if you meant to.

I can't say I've ever accidentally hit Alt-F4, but probably the game devs play full-screen and probably they just press escape to get out of menus and so they probably don't see the need for a close confirmation when clicking the OS window's X as they've never accidentally done it. So I wouldn't want to rule out the need for a confirmation on Alt-F4 just because other people can't imagine the need for it. It's entirely possible, for example, to configure F4 to be your "change weapon" key, and "alt" to be your "fire weapon" key, and in the middle of shooting, you might realize you're using the wrong weapon, and hit F4 to change it, while still firing.

I'm not sure why people think a close confirmation is such a bad thing that having one that they can turn off is unacceptable. Like, I think the one on my web browser is silly since I can just re-open the browser if I didn't actually mean to close all tabs, but I basically always did intend to close all tabs (the tab close button is nowhere near the window close button) and if I didn't, I only have to re-open the web browser and they all come back, and that takes like 10 seconds. However, I think it's still enabled even though I could disable it. I'm just not bothered enough to go into the settings and find the option to disable it. I close my web browser like once a month, so it's not worth my time to care.

In the same way, how many times a day do people close Factorio? Outside of the devs who might close it a hundred times a day, the average answer is probably "once." Confirmations get annoying when, like, say you're deleting a hundred files, and every file you're asked "are you sure you want to delete?" Then it's annoying. Asking once a day for something I rarely do and which, if I do it by accident, the "undo" process will be about five minutes? That's fine. If it takes me a second to click that confirmation, I'll have to have needlessly clicked it 3240 times to have wasted as much time as I've wasted in the last week restarting and reconnecting to the server this month. I've probably only closed Factorio one-tenth that many times total, never mind just in the last month when I would have enabled the option, if it existed.

So, I think doing it (if it's enabled) for Alt-F4 too is fine. If you need a quick close because you're doing mod development or something, then, well, I made a copy of the game so that I could test against random mods without having to change the mods on the copy that I use for playing Space Exploration, as well as test the zipped version of my mod without having to remove the folder version. I could just enable the confirmation on my play copy and disable the confirmation on my dev copy. So I don't see the need for different close methods to have different functionality.

Moosfet wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:54 pm

Re: player changing binding keys: then that’s their own fault and they’ve set themselves up for failure, there.

As to an option, the issue is just where to draw the line on more of these. Do we have one option for both alt+f4 and the X button? Or do we have separate options? And at what point do we stop adding options to the settings? There are already so many that I often forget what’s in there and have to be reminded by others that there is an option for that, or I know there is an option for it, but spend close to an hour looking for it. So my thinking is, rather than adding more options to an already cluttered scene of options, you can easily give people both without the need of an option: X requires confirmation, alt+f4 (or other OS equivalent) doesn’t.

FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:35 pm

Re: player changing binding keys: then that’s their own fault and they’ve set themselves up for failure, there.

One could argue that I'm setting myself up for failure by using the X in the corner of the technology menu rather than just pressing escape. However, the developers obviously intended the user to be able to use that X, since otherwise they wouldn't have put it there, even if many players do not use it. In the same way, by making it possible to configure the technology screen to show up when I press Alt-F5, they similarly intended for me to have any key combination as an option if I so choose.

As to an option, the issue is just where to draw the line on more of these. Do we have one option for both alt+f4 and the X button? Or do we have separate options? And at what point do we stop adding options to the settings? There are already so many that I often forget what’s in there and have to be reminded by others that there is an option for that, or I know there is an option for it, but spend close to an hour looking for it.

Well, as it turns out, the settings menu where this would go is the least-cluttered of all:

So my thinking is, rather than adding more options to an already cluttered scene of options, you can easily give people both without the need of an option: X requires confirmation, alt+f4 (or other OS equivalent) doesn’t.

Yes, but that's a solution that doesn't work for everyone. Alt-F4 came up because presumably whomever mentioned it first actually has a problem accidentally pressing it.

I don't personally use Alt-F4 to quickly close the game, but imagine I did, and yet I also wanted the close confirmation when I click the X. So I'd enable the close confirmations, and now have to confirm Alt-F4. I'd be wasting one second confirming the Alt-F4 vs. saving thousands of seconds by not having to restart the game and reconnect to the server when I accidentally click the X. So it would be a 99.9% win for me. I would have little to complain about.

You're arguing that we make Alt-F4 not have a confirmation, to turn that 99.9% win into a 100% win.

However, imagine that you're the person who accidentally presses Alt-F4 somehow. What turns it from a 99.9% win to a 100% win for you turns it into a 0% win for that person. They turn on close confirmations and still never get asked if they actually want to close the game, except for when they click the X which they never do accidentally and so they think it shouldn't have a confirmation. They don't even understand how us fools are doing it, because they play in full-screen mode and so the X isn't even on the screen, whereas Alt-F4 is always on the keyboard and so it's harder for them to avoid. They think we're just setting ourselves up for failure by playing in windowed mode and should just configure and use the game the way that they do.

OTOH, if the close confirmation appears no matter how you attempt to close the game, it's a 99.9% win for everyone who needs the close confirmations, and for those who don't, it's a 100% win because they can just not turn the close confirmations on.

Moosfet wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:52 pm

One could argue that I'm setting myself up for failure by using the X in the corner of the technology menu rather than just pressing escape. However, the developers obviously intended the user to be able to use that X, since otherwise they wouldn't have put it there, even if many players do not use it. In the same way, by making it possible to configure the technology screen to show up when I press Alt-F5, they similarly intended for me to have any key combination as an option if I so choose.

[...]

Yes, but that's a solution that doesn't work for everyone. Alt-F4 came up because presumably whomever mentioned it first actually has a problem accidentally pressing it.

I don't personally use Alt-F4 to quickly close the game, but imagine I did, and yet I also wanted the close confirmation when I click the X. So I'd enable the close confirmations, and now have to confirm Alt-F4. I'd be wasting one second confirming the Alt-F4 vs. saving thousands of seconds by not having to restart the game and reconnect to the server when I accidentally click the X. So it would be a 99.9% win for me. I would have little to complain about.

You're arguing that we make Alt-F4 not have a confirmation, to turn that 99.9% win into a 100% win.

However, imagine that you're the person who accidentally presses Alt-F4 somehow. What turns it from a 99.9% win to a 100% win for you turns it into a 0% win for that person. They turn on close confirmations and still never get asked if they actually want to close the game, except for when they click the X which they never do accidentally and so they think it shouldn't have a confirmation. They don't even understand how us fools are doing it, because they play in full-screen mode and so the X isn't even on the screen, whereas Alt-F4 is always on the keyboard and so it's harder for them to avoid. They think we're just setting ourselves up for failure by playing in windowed mode and should just configure and use the game the way that they do.

OTOH, if the close confirmation appears no matter how you attempt to close the game, it's a 99.9% win for everyone who needs the close confirmations, and for those who don't, it's a 100% win because they can just not turn the close confirmations on.

I would disagree with your assessments. Alt+F4 (on Windows) is a built in and known feature across all applications. Someone changing their keybindings such that they can run into situations where they "accidentally" press Alt and F4 at the same time is therefore their own doing. The fact that the devs allow any key binding to be set does not absolve the end user of this. Further, even if we had a prompt confirmation on this, if it happens enough to someone to where this was an issue, it's still going to be an issue, just now they'll constantly be getting popups interrupting their workflow. Better, yes, but still an issue. They'd still be better off changing their keybindings so this won't happen.

Moosfet wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:52 pm

Well, as it turns out, the settings menu where this would go is the least-cluttered of all

That one settings screen may not be as cluttered as the rest, but that still doesn't change that it is one more setting among many to remember exists. There's also still the issue: one setting or two? I'd want a setup where the X always prompts, but Alt+F4 never does. One setting wouldn't allow this (and it'd be annoying/pointless to be constantly going into the settings to change it), and having two I feel is just ridiculous.

FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:40 pm

I would disagree with your assessments. Alt+F4 (on Windows) is a built in and known feature across all applications. Someone changing their keybindings such that they can run into situations where they "accidentally" press Alt and F4 at the same time is therefore their own doing. The fact that the devs allow any key binding to be set does not absolve the end user of this. Further, even if we had a prompt confirmation on this, if it happens enough to someone to where this was an issue, it's still going to be an issue, just now they'll constantly be getting popups interrupting their workflow. Better, yes, but still an issue. They'd still be better off changing their keybindings so this won't happen.

Let me rephrase that for you:

The X at the corner of the window is a built-in and known feature across all applications. Someone playing in windowed mode such that they can run into situations where they "accidentally" click that X instead of the X on an in-game window is therefore their own doing. The fact that the devs allow windowed mode to be set does not absolve the end user of this. Further, even if we had a prompt confirmation on this, if it happens enough to someone to where this was an issue, it's still going to be an issue, just now they'll constantly be getting popups interrupting their workflow. Better, yes, but still an issue. They'd still be better off playing full-screen so that this won't happen.

Hopefully that makes it clear that it's just a matter of perspective. You think that a prompt on Alt-F4 is unnecessary, but other people probably think that the prompt you want, on clicking the X, is unnecessary. To insist that the game do only what you need it to do is selfish. You're essentially arguing that your inconvenience of a confirmation on Alt-F4, which takes one second to deal with, or zero seconds if you just disable the confirmations, outweighs someone else's inconvenience of 5 minutes because [insert whatever victim-blaming you want here].

It's not enough that the game does everything you want it to do, because if that's your philosophy, then what if you're not the "you" in "the game does everything you want it to do." It's probably going to be someone else. Indeed, right now, with the lack of there even being an option for close confirmations, it definitely isn't you, it's definitely someone else. The goal isn't to change "someone else" to "you" and make the game do what you want, but rather, it's to add an option that brings the game closer to doing what everyone wants.

You have to admit that, in giving you the option to get the close confirmation you want on clicking the X, but at the cost of getting one you don't want on Alt-F4, is still 99% closer to what you want than what the game is as it currently exists, as it eliminates 99% of your wasted time by preventing you from having to spend five minutes restarting the game, at the cost of taking one second to click "yes" when you actually wish to close the game. Indeed, it's 99% closer to what everyone wants. It's unfair to say that it should be 100% closer to what you want at the expense of being 0% closer to what other people want.

FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:40 pm

if it happens enough to someone to where this was an issue, it's still going to be an issue, just now they'll constantly be getting popups interrupting their workflow

Yes, but the point is, it allows them to choose to get one-second interruptions instead of five-minute interruptions. I addressed this earlier in that it would be better if I could just always press escape so that I'm never looking for any X to click, but until that's possible, one-second interruptions are by far preferable to five-minute interruptions. They put the game 99% closer to what I want it to be.

FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:40 pm

That one settings screen may not be as cluttered as the rest, but that still doesn't change that it is one more setting among many to remember exists.

I don't get this. Complaining about "one more setting to remember exists" is to complain that the game is willing to change the way it works in order to accommodate what you want. It could be worse. It could just do whatever the devs want and if you don't like it then too bad.

Also, there is a search feature. The key binding for the technology screen is buried among hundreds of key-bind options, but it's still easy to find. I just go to "controls," click the search icon, type in "tec" and there it is...


In the same way, if there's an option for close confirmations, you'll just type in "close" or "confirm" or something and you'll easily find it.

Moosfet wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:37 pm

It’s not the same as there are actual use cases for playing Windowed mode and the sizing and positioning of the windows within the game are not within your control (or at least the positioning of the full screen ones). Having a key binding such that you can accidentally press Alt+F4, however, does not have a use case that compares and is within your control.

It’s not a case of “selfishness”. It’s a matter of finding the best compromise that doesn’t add more unnecessary options to toggle things.

Moosfet wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:37 pm

Also, there is a search feature.

That’s keybindings. Not options.

This is now happening to me a lot as well. When playing in window mode, it's quite easy to accidentally click the close window X on the game and then there goes your gameplay since last save. Quite frustrating. A confirm dialog or possibly as an alternative - an automatic "game exit" save slot. I'm not going to enter the debate on this thread if I can help it, but it seems there is a problem that needs solving here.

I play the game almost always with "Full-screen" enabled. In part, it is to avoid the situation where I am viewing the Technology Screen or displaying the map and mistakenly click the Windows close window button or forget to hit the Escape key and exit the game entirely. But, there are occasions where I intentionally disable "Full-screen" and switch to normal window operation (e.g. search for an answer to a question, handle email, etc.) and forget that I am not in full-screen mode and "lose" whatever work in progress since the last save. My fault, poor memory, yes, I know.

In any case, would it be possible to throw in a dialog-box warning that the player is about to exit the game when clicking the Windows close window button wherever it is available? The pseudo-code would be something like this:

If not in full screen mode and if clicking the Windows close window button, then display message-box warning.

In all other cases, the full-screen mode hides the offending button and prevents the gamer from losing any work in progress.