Factorio Forums

tl;dr

Add an alternative recipe for flamethrower ammo that works for Gleba

what?

Add a recipe for flamethrower ammo that uses light oil instead of crude oil

why?

Fighting things with your personal flamethrower or the tank flamethrower is fun but sadly underused.
Flamethrower ammo is literally the only item in the game that is made directly from crude oil, so there is simply no way to craft it on Gleba woth local resources.

This doesn't seem like an intended challenge, since you can make oil for flamethrower turrets with a bit of effort from coal (an appropriate challenge). Crude oil, however, only comes out of the ground, there are simply no other ways to get it.

I realize this is a niche problem, but it does seem weird that the ammo for flamethrower of all things can't be made locally on the planet with the most biomass.

I think it is a challenge, and it is fun for me

sp55aa wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 5:22 pm I think it is a challenge, and it is fun for me

I don't know if I'd consider requesting it from Nauvis an interesting challenge.

mako00 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 5:39 pm

sp55aa wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 5:22 pm I think it is a challenge, and it is fun for me

I don't know if I'd consider requesting it from Nauvis an interesting challenge.

try rocket turret? gun turret deal with smalls, rocket turret deal with bigs. and turrets can set priority now

Maybe having option to use different oil products as ammo would solve this. If our current throwers can use almost all oil stuff in them, why couldn't we make ammo with those? Idk if we really need that in base game. My opinion mod for this would be solution. It's not that used ammo.

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/flamethrower-fluid

You might like this one

TL;DR

Flamethrower fuel needs an alternate recipe for Gleba since there is no crude oil there - ideally this would be made from jelly or lubricant. Flamethrower turrets also need a locally sourced option for fuel, namely lubricant.

What?

Flamethrowers have had a complex relationship with Factorio since they were introduced, and have been iterated on several times since then. First, they shot projectiles forward that damaged things but did not set anything on fire - currently, the flamethrower weapon on the tank still works this way (which I'm not a huge fan of but that's not the point of this suggestion). At one point flamethrowers were then modified to shoot a more realistic jet of flame in an arc, still using projectiles, but this time lighting trees and bugs on fire with a direct hit and creating fire on the ground where they land. This used to be devastating against nests until the damage was nerfed at one point, leading them to be less effective, but still very powerful, against enemy buildings.

The recipe has also undergone many changes. The flamethrower fuel used to be a mix of heavy and light oil combined with iron plates. Then this was changed to use petroleum gas instead, and finally the recipe settled on was crude oil and steel plates before the 1.0 release. Additionally, flamethrower turrets can accept crude, heavy, or light oil, with light being the most effective for DPS - this has always been the case.

Gleba is a jungle planet filled with lots of flammable flora and fauna. Flamethrowers are just as effective here as they are on Nauvis, if not moreso, so it makes sense to use them. The only issue is the flamethrower's recipe taking crude oil, which is only available on Nauvis and Aquilo, the latter of which flamethrowers are entirely useless on. Effectively, what this means is that to get flamethrower ammo on Gleba, it must be imported because it cannot be produced locally. And factory forbid you want to use flamethrower turrets on Gleba, because you'll be barrelling the fuel and shipping it in via space platform. Yuck.

My proposal to fix this is a simple one. Much like how rocket fuel, plastic, sulfur, and lubricant have alternate recipes on Gleba, I think flamethrower fuel should get the same treatment. Using something like jelly or lubricant in a chem plant or biochamber with steel to make flamethrower fuel makes the most sense to me. I also think that flamethrower turrets should be allowed to use lubricant as ammo, albeit at a small penalty to raw DPS or ammo efficiency (or both) to ensure that light oil remains the best choice on planets where it is available.

Why?

Factorio is a game that is very open-ended and allows the player to approach problems from several avenues, which makes for a unique experience. Flamethrowers, while entirely optional, are very fun to use and can be extremely powerful when set up correctly, especially when supported by other turrets. So, I think it would be amazing if the ammunition could be crafted and sourced on Gleba itself. This would eschew the need to import it from Nauvis, while still leaving that as an option for the discerning player, and create an additional option for other players willing to step up to the automation and logistics challenge to ensure that the flamethrower fuel will flow. Because we all want to watch the world burn.

But flamethrower ammo is only for the handheld flamethrower. How much of that could you possibly need to use? Especially on Gleba, where you don’t need to expand due to your resources running out. I don’t think adding this tiny amount of recipe bloat would be worth it. Besides, the rifle and tesla gun both use ammo that needs to be imported. It’s not unprecedented.

Also, it is possible to fuel flamethrower turrets on Gleba, but only after you also visit Vulcanus. You make coal using coal synthesis, and then use coal liquefaction to turn that into heavy/light oil. You can even easily get rid of the gas using heating towers. It’s a neat little trick to combine two planets’ techs together, I like it.

CyberCider wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2024 9:44 pm But flamethrower ammo is only for the handheld flamethrower. How much of that could you possibly need to use? Especially on Gleba, where you don’t need to expand due to your resources running out. I don’t think adding this tiny amount of recipe bloat would be worth it. Besides, the rifle and tesla gun both use ammo that needs to be imported. It’s not unprecedented.

The handheld flamethrower is still useful when clearing nests on Gleba much in the same way it is on Nauvis. In fact it's my weapon of choice when I decide I need more pentapod eggs.

I would argue the tesla gun/turret/ammo are a different class of weapon since they're exclusive to Fulgora and probably aren't a good comparison here. I would say the same thing about railguns from Aquilo. At that point the player is making a conscious decision to import a planet-exclusive weapon. Guns and lasers have more in common with flamethrowers in that regard.

CyberCider wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2024 9:44 pm Also, it is possible to fuel flamethrower turrets on Gleba, but only after you also visit Vulcanus. You make coal using coal synthesis, and then use coal liquefaction to turn that into heavy/light oil. You can even easily get rid of the gas using heating towers. It’s a neat little trick to combine two planets’ techs together, I like it.

Huh, I didn't connect the dots there with coal synthesis. You're definitely on to something. I would retort though that if Gleba is the first planet you go to and you end up getting stranded there (which is an edge case, I know), you can't use flamethrower ammo or turrets, being locked out of a powerful and helpful weapon class until you can get offworld. Having the option to use flamethrowers as defense while you're preparing to leave in that case would be nice.

Coal synthesis + either liquifaction are options for the flamethrower turret, but flamethrower ammo needs (crude oil + steel IIRC).

I would actually like to see both light/heavy oil available more directly (like lubricant) as well as having a local flamethrower ammo option.

It would be easy to make a mod to provide more direct recipes +icons too, but would prefer these in vanilla SA.

+1.

Tesse11ation wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2024 9:57 pm

CyberCider wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2024 9:44 pm But flamethrower ammo is only for the handheld flamethrower. How much of that could you possibly need to use? Especially on Gleba, where you don’t need to expand due to your resources running out. I don’t think adding this tiny amount of recipe bloat would be worth it. Besides, the rifle and tesla gun both use ammo that needs to be imported. It’s not unprecedented.

The handheld flamethrower is still useful when clearing nests on Gleba much in the same way it is on Nauvis. In fact it's my weapon of choice when I decide I need more pentapod eggs.

But how often do you actually need to do that? Not very. And for those occasions, a little manual importing won’t kill you. Even if you really want to avoid it at any cost, you could simply not use the flamethrower. You have bullets, explosives and lasers at your disposal, they’re all very effective.

I would retort though that if Gleba is the first planet you go to and you end up getting stranded there (which is an edge case, I know), you can't use flamethrower ammo or turrets, being locked out of a powerful and helpful weapon class until you can get offworld. Having the option to use flamethrowers as defense while you're preparing to leave in that case would be nice.

Sure it would be nice, but do you need it? No. I visited Gleba first, and my red bullet+yellow rocket defenses held just fine until I got artillery and tesla turrets. Besides, there’s nothing strange about a planet technology letting you do something on another planet that you previously couldn’t. It’s nice to be able to update old factories with new technology.

But, in case you’re interested, I think I found just the mod for you: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/boompuff-agriculture

CyberCider wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2024 11:13 am But how often do you actually need to do that? Not very. And for those occasions, a little manual importing won’t kill you. Even if you really want to avoid it at any cost, you could simply not use the flamethrower. You have bullets, explosives and lasers at your disposal, they’re all very effective.

"JUST DON'T USE FLAMETHROWER, LUL" isn't an argument, it defeats the purpose of having the conversation to begin with. It sounds like you are being contrarian simply because you don't personally care about using flamethrowers in an open-ended sandbox game, where millions of players have blazed their own trail so far (no pun intended) because they've decided how they want to approach the problems that the game sets forth. So I'm going to have to disagree with you.

CyberCider wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2024 11:13 am Sure it would be nice, but do you need it? No. I visited Gleba first, and my red bullet+yellow rocket defenses held just fine until I got artillery and tesla turrets. Besides, there’s nothing strange about a planet technology letting you do something on another planet that you previously couldn’t. It’s nice to be able to update old factories with new technology.

But, in case you’re interested, I think I found just the mod for you: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/boompuff-agriculture

We're not talking about a planet technology letting you do something on another planet that you previously couldn't. We're talking about the inverse - you have a technology that works well on Nauvis, and would work even better on Gleba, that suddenly becomes constrained to, "I need to import this or else I can't have it on this planet". Which is fine for stuff where that actually makes sense, like the restriction on tesla weapons and railguns. Flamethrowers and their ammo have no such restriction (like the electromagnetic field or pressure requirement for crafting), implying they can and should be built anywhere you want.

This is not about what players *need* to do. It's about what we *want* to do. If we want to use flamethrowers on a jungle planet where everything is flammable, in a game that encourages playing with the tools that it gives you, who are you to stand in the way of that?

I should also mention - flamethrowers are not necessarily just a stop-gap. You can use them from the moment you unlock them all the way until the end of the game, and as long as you keep your turrets fueled, they'll keep roasting bugs and pentapods.

Whether or not you decide to supplement them with a more diverse turret composition, remove them entirely, or even not build any to begin with should IMO be a conscious and deliberate choice from the player. And of course every player is going to have a different answer, sometimes the same player will even have multiple answers to this, or change their mind.

Even while completely isolated on Gleba, you can build gun turrets, laser turrets, flamethrower turrets, and all of their hand weapon counterparts, but not the ammo for the handheld flamethrower specifically. I don't pretend to know what things are discussed at the Wube Software office when it comes to game dev. But at least to me, this seems more like an oversight than an intentional design choice.

Tesse11ation wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:58 am "JUST DON'T USE FLAMETHROWER, LUL" isn't an argument, it defeats the purpose of having the conversation to begin with.

Well, that wasn’t my whole argument. My argument was as follows:

The consumption of handheld flamethrower fuel isn’t automated, and therefore its delivery isn’t a regular shipment that the planet becomes reliant on. You only need to import handheld flamethrower fuel when you, personally, want to drop to the planet and clear new territory for scaling up your factory. That’s neither regular nor automated. On Nauvis you also have to expand when your resources start to dry up, but that doesn’t happen on Gleba. So, since it’s not something that the factory is reliant on, there’s nothing wrong or gamebreaking about handheld flamethrower fuel needing to be imported. The planet’s factory and all of its defenses can still be perfectly self-sufficient without it.

And a preference for self-sufficiency is the only reason I can imagine someone being so opposed to importing. If you have some different reason, please let me know.

Also, have you forgotten that in order to use the fuel to begin with, you already need to “import” the playable character to the planet? So, if you really like flamethrowers so much, why not launch just one more rocket after launching yourself? That’s 100 fuel, which lasts a pretty good while.

We're not talking about a planet technology letting you do something on another planet that you previously couldn't. We're talking about the inverse - you have a technology that works well on Nauvis, and would work even better on Gleba, that suddenly becomes constrained to, "I need to import this or else I can't have it on this planet".

I was referring specifically to flamethrower turrets, and using coal liquefaction technology from Vulcanus to fuel them. Maybe I should have been more clear. It’s like, for example, that one technology that requires both orange and pink science packs that lets you build rail supports on the extra deep tar on Fulgora. Or the fact that recyclers can turn 1 nutrient into 2.5 spoilage. Or the asteroid tech from Gleba letting you use foundries in space. Sometimes planets will interact like this, technology from one planet granting you the ability to do something new on another planet.