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Mods should have better control over versions
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:04 pm
by Cribbit
1. When the game auto installs mods to load a save, it should install the correct versions.
2. Mod changelog should be shown when updating.
3. Mods should be downgradeable via the game itself. While the external process isn't that hard it shouldn't be necessary.
4. Players should be notified when a newer version of a mod is available.
Details:
1. If a later version is available, ask if they want to update. If the version is removed, ask the player if the want the one soonest before, soonest after, or latest.
2. It should say how many recipes added/removed, especially if already researched, and how many items on the map were removed/replaced.
It's not a mod specific experience, but I hit this with Industrial Revolution 3. I took a break from Factorio, came back, mod had a breaking update. I thought it was just a few tweaks, ended up quitting again after spending hours trying to fix my factory. The auto install of the mod went straight to the latest version.
Re: Mods should have better control over versions
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:29 pm
by mmmPI
Cribbit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:04 pm
Mods should be downgradeable via the game itself. While the external process isn't that hard it shouldn't be necessary.
The situation you describe with mods happened to me, and i had to look for hours to understand the problem, this is actually already existing in game, but in a "very hidden way" :
- problem.jpg (214.21 KiB) Viewed 703 times
I don't know enough to tell you what i think would be best, but i share the opinion that there could be something done about the whole thing. This dropdown menu afaik only shows when you already have different version of the mod in the computer's folder.
Re: Mods should have better control over versions
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 5:09 pm
by SoShootMe
Cribbit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:04 pm
1. The version of a mod should be included in a save. When the game auto installs mods to load a save, it should install the correct versions.
2. Mod makers should be able to designate an update as breaking, which creates warnings for users before they upgrade the mod.
3. Mods should be downgradeable via the game itself. While the external process isn't that hard it shouldn't be necessary.
I agree with #1.
For #2, there's a widely used (in general, I don't mean for Factorio mods) way of indicating breaking/new feature/bugfix versions:
https://semver.org/. Designating a particular version as breaking is just a very limited version of that. For example, semantic versioning would allow #1 to (prompt the user to) select the latest version, the latest minor version of the same major version, or the latest patch version of the same minor version, instead of only the exact version from the save. An optional "semantic versioning on releases since <date>" mod property is the best way I can think of to introduce this.
For #3, as mmmPI showed, you can already choose between installed versions; the missing piece is the ability to install specific versions from within the game.
(This thread maybe belongs in Mod Portal Discussion.)
Re: Mods should have better control over versions
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 5:30 pm
by Deadlock989
Cribbit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:04 pm
1. The version of a mod should be included in a save. When the game auto installs mods to load a save, it should install the correct versions.
2. Mod makers should be able to designate an update as breaking, which creates warnings for users before they upgrade the mod.
3. Mods should be downgradeable via the game itself. While the external process isn't that hard it shouldn't be necessary.
Specific experience here is Industrial Revolution 3. I took a break from Factorio, came back, mod had a breaking update. I thought it was just a few tweaks, ended up quitting again after spending hours trying to fix my factory. The auto install of the mod went straight to the latest version.
Since IR3 has been singled out here, I'd like to point out that it has had exactly one update that I consider "breaking", in July 2023, i.e. 11 months ago. That update had a minor version number change (3.0.19 to 3.1.0) as opposed to a patch number change. Conventionally, this indicates that there have been more significant changes than "just a few tweaks". For example, Factorio itself historically introduced greater or lesser breaking changes when its minor version number changed. Sometimes, it is unavoidable: if you want a (better) omelette, you need to break a few (more) eggs.
With regards to "warnings", the details of the breaking changes (and advice to remain on older versions where appropriate) in 3.1.0 were also flagged up with capital letter NOTICEs in the changelog. These notices explicitly advised that if you did not want to spend any of your leisure time on fixing broken factories, you should stay on the previous version. You did not read this advice. Yes, there were 25+ updates or more to go through since you last played the mod, but Factorio handily organises the in-game changelog around the minor version number changes, so it would not have taken an unreasonable amount of your time to find the warnings (certainly, less than you wasted on trying to figure out what was wrong with your save). It is quite frustrating when I spend time on populating changelogs and formatting them to Factorio's horrible specifications and then they are completely ignored by punters anyway.
Every other update to the mod since then has been non-breaking additional content and bugfixes. Your suggestions above, especially the one around forcing the download of ancient mod versions, would simply ensure that more people miss out on those bugfixes and improvements. Also, I reserve the right to take down ancient versions of the mod whenever I wish, most likely because they are buggy or just clutter, but for any other reason as well. I left the final 3.0.x version up specifically so people would have recourse to that branch of the mod if they wanted to load up very old saved games. But I have no idea whether your old saved game's specific version is still on the portal.
To be very frank: mod creators can only babysit players so much. We have more than enough hoops to jump through as it is. I'm opposed to being given even more busywork to do with proposed "breaking change flags" and fielding even more bug reports on completely out of date versions for things that were fixed months ago when a little personal responsibility on the part of the people using the mods would be a better substitute. Games, and mods for games, are the same as any other software: you should read the update notes before you install them on your PC and plough ahead with trying to use them. I've learned that the hard way.
With regard to the in-game mod browser allowing for downloads of old mod versions, I don't see any problem with that, assuming the versions still exist (see above), but it is not something I have ever needed myself.
Re: Mods should have better control over versions
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 5:37 pm
by mmmPI
Deadlock989 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 5:30 pm
It is quite frustrating when I spend time on populating changelogs and formatting them to Factorio's horrible specifications and then they are completely ignored by punters anyway.
Don't let get that onto your mind ! I have never seen someone says : " oh i really like your populated changelog " to someone else, but i sure appreciate when i can read one.
Re: Mods should have better control over versions
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 11:56 pm
by Silari
Cribbit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:04 pm
1. The version of a mod should be included in a save. When the game auto installs mods to load a save, it should install the correct versions.
It is in the save already, you can see them and the version in the load dialog.
- factorio-load.PNG (51.18 KiB) Viewed 619 times
You can even tell Factorio to load the exact mod version by holding control when clicking the Sync mods with save button, as long as the version still exists on the mod portal. From my experience, most versions are. It WOULD be nice if the button tooltip said the feature existed.
Re: Mods should have better control over versions
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2024 10:26 pm
by Cribbit
Deadlock989 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 5:30 pm
Cribbit wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:04 pm
1. The version of a mod should be included in a save. When the game auto installs mods to load a save, it should install the correct versions.
2. Mod makers should be able to designate an update as breaking, which creates warnings for users before they upgrade the mod.
3. Mods should be downgradeable via the game itself. While the external process isn't that hard it shouldn't be necessary.
Specific experience here is Industrial Revolution 3. I took a break from Factorio, came back, mod had a breaking update. I thought it was just a few tweaks, ended up quitting again after spending hours trying to fix my factory. The auto install of the mod went straight to the latest version.
Since IR3 has been singled out here, I'd like to point out that it has had exactly one update that I consider "breaking", in July 2023, i.e. 11 months ago. That update had a minor version number change (3.0.19 to 3.1.0) as opposed to a patch number change. Conventionally, this indicates that there have been more significant changes than "just a few tweaks". For example, Factorio itself historically introduced greater or lesser breaking changes when its minor version number changed. Sometimes, it is unavoidable: if you want a (better) omelette, you need to break a few (more) eggs.
With regards to "warnings", the details of the breaking changes (and advice to remain on older versions where appropriate) in 3.1.0 were also flagged up with capital letter NOTICEs in the changelog. These notices explicitly advised that if you did not want to spend any of your leisure time on fixing broken factories, you should stay on the previous version. You did not read this advice. Yes, there were 25+ updates or more to go through since you last played the mod, but Factorio handily organises the in-game changelog around the minor version number changes, so it would not have taken an unreasonable amount of your time to find the warnings (certainly, less than you wasted on trying to figure out what was wrong with your save). It is quite frustrating when I spend time on populating changelogs and formatting them to Factorio's horrible specifications and then they are completely ignored by punters anyway.
Every other update to the mod since then has been non-breaking additional content and bugfixes. Your suggestions above, especially the one around forcing the download of ancient mod versions, would simply ensure that more people miss out on those bugfixes and improvements. Also, I reserve the right to take down ancient versions of the mod whenever I wish, most likely because they are buggy or just clutter, but for any other reason as well. I left the final 3.0.x version up specifically so people would have recourse to that branch of the mod if they wanted to load up very old saved games. But I have no idea whether your old saved game's specific version is still on the portal.
To be very frank: mod creators can only babysit players so much. We have more than enough hoops to jump through as it is. I'm opposed to being given even more busywork to do with proposed "breaking change flags" and fielding even more bug reports on completely out of date versions for things that were fixed months ago when a little personal responsibility on the part of the people using the mods would be a better substitute. Games, and mods for games, are the same as any other software: you should read the update notes before you install them on your PC and plough ahead with trying to use them. I've learned that the hard way.
With regard to the in-game mod browser allowing for downloads of old mod versions, I don't see any problem with that, assuming the versions still exist (see above), but it is not something I have ever needed myself.
I didn't mean to single out IR3, I should've worded that better. I think the changes made were all correct and improved the mod* especially the mixer/alloy changes.
But I didn't get to see the changelog before it updated the mod for me. I didn't get a choice to update or not, it just did it, and I didn't know the impact until I had opened my save and started playing.
I agree with the goal to reduce headaches/babysitting by mod creators. I'll update the wording here.
*
Though I find nat gas furnaces unusable without the 2 module slots. They seem to be harder logistics to save some electricity, which is usually for pollution, but then no ef1/2 so electric furnaces are 1/3rd the pollution
Re: Mods should have better control over versions
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2024 10:27 pm
by Cribbit
This is what players get on a mod update right now. No changelog. I should've realized the high # of changed recipes and sought it out tho
Re: Mods should have better control over versions
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 1:22 am
by BrainGamer_
Cribbit wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2024 10:27 pm
This is what players get on a mod update right now. No changelog. I should've realized the high # of changed recipes and sought it out tho
Mod changelogs exist where you actually update mods and even before you choose to update the mod
- image.png (114.11 KiB) Viewed 452 times
Re: Mods should have better control over versions
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 11:11 pm
by Cribbit
BrainGamer_ wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 1:22 am
Cribbit wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2024 10:27 pm
This is what players get on a mod update right now. No changelog. I should've realized the high # of changed recipes and sought it out tho
Mod changelogs exist where you actually update mods and even before you choose to update the mod
image.png
I'm not saying they don't exist. I'm saying you have to actively seek them out.
Also, this case is when you're going from mod not installed, to auto installed by opening the save.