Research Prerequisites include Use Cases

[Wrathsbane]

TL;DR

Change a significant number of techs to require a specific amount of in-game actions or uses before being researchable with science packs, ensuring progression is linked to what the player is actually doing.

What?

The Problem: Several items and tech tiers have extremely short periods of function before obsolescence due to progression in the tech tree. Too often in my playthroughs, before I've even had the chance or opportunity to use something (burner inserters, firearm magazines, basic oil processing, etc), I'm provided with or have researched something that makes it either entirely obsolete or decidedly inferior. Bottom Line: I'm researching solutions to problems I haven't even had yet.

I'd love to see a more directed approach to progression through use cases becoming requirements for techs to unlock and be researched. Example: After X number of items have been moved by yellow inserters, letting the player have a more expanded season of solving logistical problems with just those available, this experience with actually using them leads to the idea for innovation (tech unlock) towards fast or long handed inserters. Similarly, after X number of rounds of regular yellow Firearm Magazine have been used, the innovation towards improved armor piercing rounds is unlocked. Why this also matters, is that I shouldn't be researching into things like improved flammables when I've never made a flamethrower, or improving the carry capacity and speed of logistics bots I haven't even built yet. It would make far more sense that after X number of items have been delivered by logistics or construction bots, I (the player) have ideas about improving their carry capacity. This concept can be applied in some metric or another to a significant number of the technologies in the tree, but wouldn't be necessary on all of them as some of them are fundamentally new ideas or tech branches.

Why?

There's an incredible amount of content in the base game, but a large portion of it is very quickly rendered obsolete, and the logistical solutions required at that level are rarely given a chance to be appreciated (i.e. I'm going straight from tier 1 to tier 3 belts or something similar where a generation is either short or entirely leapt). Additionally, this makes the upgrades themselves less appreciated as big impactful changes to logistical limitations up until that point (the obvious exception to this being bots, always being a complete paradigm shift in logistics solutions and always feeling like a huge progression). My hopes for why this could deepen the Factorio experience are twofold:
1. I hate to see ANY content in this game (or any game really, as this problem is not limited to Factorio alone) be perceived only as a passthrough or annoying intermediary to what are obviously bigger and better solutions farther down the tech tree. By having to actually USE an item or tech level in order to progress to a better version of it, you have to actually appreciate that item or tech for what it CAN do, and making it work for your current needs. Additionally this makes the upgrade to that structure, weapon, or process a much more appreciated and significant change, germane to what the player is actually doing.
2. The tech tree begins to reflect the sandbox nature of the default core game. While I'm very aware this suggestion would require some rework and de-tangling of the tech tree, it could simultaneously allow focus on what areas the player deems important to their play-style, as well as slow down the overwhelming explosion of new structures/items/weapons etc. that sometimes happens, desensitizing the player to what they've actually unlocked and why it is important. Many times when I'm taking my time with a base, well over half my crafting window is new unlocks (highlighted with the little yellow ! symbol) that I'm either nowhere near using anytime soon, or not going to use at all in that particular playthrough. If I'm intentionally pouring everything into a train based logistics system with steam power as my sole power source and laser turrets as my primary defense, why would my labs be busy developing nuclear power, logistics bot speed improvements, and uranium ammo, flooding my crafting window with weapons and structures I'll not be using? I'd instead love to see improvements and efficiencies being researched based on my then extensive firsthand experiences with those related technologies (rail, steam power, and laser damage or efficiency in this example case).

Caveats

I'm fine with this being merged at the moderators' discretion to the Research Overhauls link collection, but despite much searching I didn't come across any suggestions or mods that seem to be directly in line with making techs dependent on actions the player is actually taking. I'm absolutely happy to be proven wrong on either of those cases though. Additionally, were this ever to be implemented, I'd entirely understand if this manifested as an optional element or just a mod, as it does pretty drastically change how the current tech tree plays and flows. It could even be on a slider to determine the overall game-speed, akin to the Civilization series having options like Quick, Standard, Epic, and Marathon by simply scaling cost values. Higher numbers for use cases would lead to a longer period of the game spent in the distinct technological phases.

I'd love to hear thoughts from you all (like, dislike, it's all good)!

[Koub]

I'm not fond of gating things behind artificial limitations solely designed to force the player in doing things a certain way before moving on.

The issue is that early game is designed to be blazing fast. Provided enough science capacity, I'm also spending most of the time running after the techs I have unlocked, up to the point my infrastructure can't keep up any more with the scaling needed to continue growing my production capacity.

I think an answer to your (legitimate) observations already exists in the game : marathon and research multiplier. With marathon and research costs x10, I'm sure there will plenty time to savor the dubious pleasure of having to run solely on burner inserters.
Alternatively some mods do it pretty well : I haven't had the opportunity to test Industrial Revolution 2, but I did try the 1st, and the early stages of the game were significantly longer.

[aka13]

Try deathworld marathon, if that is not enough, multiply research cost further. Perhaps this will be a short-term solution for you.
Otherwise, I think that research is enough of a gate. I'd hate for the game to prevent me from being able to target and rush a specific technology.

[Koub]

Try deathworld marathon

Deathworld, unless I'm mistaken, is just aimed at making the natives more of a threat, not making the game slower. It only should have a marginal effect on the game pace (in that more efforts are to be aimed at surviving the biters). Most of the deathworld marathon slower progression pace comes from the marathon component, deathworld is just some kind of additional pain in the back.

[aka13]

Try deathworld marathon

Deathworld, unless I'm mistaken, is just aimed at making the natives more of a threat, not making the game slower. It only should have a marginal effect on the game pace (in that more efforts are to be aimed at surviving the biters). Most of the deathworld marathon slower progression pace comes from the marathon component, deathworld is just some kind of additional pain in the back.

It does make it a lot slower, since you can not just push and expand as easily. I don't feel it being marginal at all. On non-deathworld I usually don't even automate turret production, since I can just craft a few when I need them.
On deathworld, even 400h into a save, expansion needs quite a lot of logistics and automation, you can't go in guns blazing for meaningful territorial expansion. But that's only my 2c.

[Wrathsbane]

I appreciate the thoughts! Marathon and research cost definitely do slow things down, you both are absolutely right, which is the solution to one of the bigger issues I've had. I'll have to add Marathon Deathworld to the list of 'To-do', haha.

I'm not fond of gating things behind artificial limitations solely designed to force the player in doing things a certain way before moving on.

I absolutely agree, and thus my entire point of tying the unlocking and presentation of researchable techs to ONLY what the player is actually doing. I feel like the base game absolutely already gates players with the specific ingredients of science packs as a gentle 'nudge' towards items they should probably be automating. But I guess my idea is less about creating huge inflated numbers to limit the player's advancement capability, but rather be a check against the player progressing into something they have zero experience with. Never built a train? Why are you researching (and therefore wasting time/resources) towards better train brakes? Never built a red belt? Why would you be researching blue? Again, it's about the player solving problems they've never had. (Caveat: I understand that we've all played through countless times, so they're problems we're already familiar with, but my concept is within the confines of a single playthrough)

I'd hate for the game to prevent me from being able to target and rush a specific technology.

I absolutely agree, and that's why I'd more like to see you be able to focus that path ONLY. Instead in the base game, you're currently forced to be researching a plethora of things that may not pertain to what you're actually trying to accomplish. Maybe your targeted tech is Destroyer bots. Wouldn't you want to be seeing those military techs (and only those techs) unlocked through your likely already use of early game Defenders, etc? I'm only suggesting the tech tree be presented to the player in a fashion respecting the player's actual actions and progress. In this case, your focused military use would have related military techs presented.

For the both of you, then what would dissuade you from simply having an option to start the game with all techs unlocked already? If the early game is meant to be blazing fast, and you don't want any gates between you and a specific tech, then what do you feel you gain from going through the motions of that initial tech progression at all? I'm genuinely curious, as you could argue it serves the same purpose as a lot of other games where very frequent players blast through storylines or other main game elements (usually validly complaining they can't be skipped at all) to get to more expanded and interesting 'end game' material.

[aka13]

I think that the tech tree is something where any changes should be considered thoroughly and delicately. I remember the first changes since the first science packs, I remember pack rebalance. I still hate science-pack 3 and further packs, since they need too much attention too quickly.

The main point I have against the said proposal, is that the current system permits you to skip something, if you don't like it on most places. For example, I don't use nuclear, until I get kovarex. It just does not appeal to me to stockpile uranium in such high amounts. Or that I don't use trains, until I have stations and signals, because it's just cumbersome.

Hell, I don't use the combat bots at all, because I consider them wasteful, the concept of single-use-weapons just is not fun for me.
What I think, is that rather that some technology being locked behind using the previous technology, perhaps towards 1.2 some tech tree changes will come again, so that you unlock techs in such a manner, that they provide a framework with which you can use the items meaningfully, instead of rushing the next thing, like the train example.

Or the bots - I still don't get it, what the point of unlocking construction bots is. I can not find a case, where I would touch the bots before researching logistic networks, transport bots, construction bots, lubricant, and the robot pack - just does not make sense to me at all, how is a new player even supposed to understand, that the system only becomes usable after all that? Why would you waste precious chemical energy on covering your base with construction bots and passive providers, if the factory you will be building is going to be built for the first time, and not from a tiled blueprint (unless you are one of those players? You can't afford covering your defences en masse at that point as well, since energy is too precious, and logistics for a repair train are too painful.

I think that overall the problem you describe amounts to that, that the tech tree need a very careful, delicate rebalancing and regrouping of techs, so that each time you research a tech, you don't HAVE to go and use it, but rather WANT to.

[Wrathsbane]

The main point I have against the said proposal, is that the current system permits you to skip something, if you don't like it on most places. For example, I don't use nuclear, until I get kovarex. It just does not appeal to me to stockpile uranium in such high amounts. Or that I don't use trains, until I have stations and signals, because it's just cumbersome.

That makes total sense, and is a fair point. I'd imagine from a game design and balance sense, it's difficult to strike that balance between challenging and cumbersome, making early inferior items still functional enough while still leaving room for meaningful improvements later on.

Hell, I don't use the combat bots at all, because I consider them wasteful, the concept of single-use-weapons just is not fun for me.

Yeah, definitely my feelings as well sometimes, thus why I'd additionally maybe like to see some increased separation of the existing techs, allowing for a more focused play-style. Really the root of my whole idea is simply to present the player with techs and upgrades that are tied to what they're actually doing, using, or invested in. Much like an RPG element of being able to choose where to put your stat points, and gaining upgrades or improvements through continued usage (XP) of what you specifically like. If you forgive the continued RPG analogy: Right now it simply feels like while I'm trying to focus melee weapons, I'm also gaining stat points in ranged weapons and unlocking new magic spells... I don't want those! (On this playthrough at least, haha). Instead of my continued dedication to inserters leading to exceptional upgrade innovations like increased stack size, speed, filtering, and maybe even selectable input and output positions, the tech tree seems to be screaming 'Yes, but have you tried everything else?'

[Koub]

I think that overall the problem you describe amounts to that, that the tech tree need a very careful, delicate rebalancing and regrouping of techs, so that each time you research a tech, you don't HAVE to go and use it, but rather WANT to.

I like this philosophy very much. This is exactly the way I like the games I play (and pretty much any kind of service I consume) to be designed.

Additional off topic rambling on a vaguely similar design subject

On a similar design choice subject, I highly dislike the fact that the research queue setting is on the map creation interface, and not an option one can activate or deactivate (in the game settings) : Every single time I restart a new map, there has been enough time for me to forget about it. So I play my game for a few tens minutes with the default setting (only activate research queue when the rocket has been launched), and when I'm ready to start queuing researches, I realize I forgot to set it the way I want it (research queue always available), so I have to start all over my game. This is infuriating, and I have dropped quite a few maps out of spite because of that.

[Roxor128]

The mod Nullius has this feature in the form of checkpoints in its alternate tech tree. They require you to make or use some quantity of an item to move on.

I found it rather annoying when trying to get to rail signals, because in order to research that, I had to pass a checkpoint for red belts (which in turn required lubricant, which has its own checkpoint), which I had no plans to use for quite some time (and still haven't many hours later). Similarly, the research for sensor nodes (the equivalent of radar) is locked behind checkpoints for limestone production, freshwater utilisation and module demonstration. Again, I have only done the bare minimum to get past the checkpoints and won't be doing anything with their relevant technologies for quite some time.

[ssilk]

That are all good changes to the game, but I believe that the vanilla game will keep the current behavior, because I don’t see good enough reasons: the game-play will not increase much with it, because it gives as much as it takes (e.g. clearness vs. freedom). It’s just making things differently, which is refreshing and a must have for mods. For the current vanilla it would be simply possible to change it, but would also have some side-effects with unknown effort to fix (ratios change etc.), so that the gameplay of vanilla changes into non-foreseeable ways.

[quyxkh]

I still have mental videoclips from my first game, figuring out belt-lane interactions and the eye-widening realization of how deep the automation rabbit hole might eventually go. That little 'hunh" moment when I noticed offshore pumps didn't need power. The little hand-mining-optimization minigame of the steel axe progression, since polished out of existence.

And yeah, it'd be nice if there was somehow more reason to still live in that early simpler game, where automating green science was a challenge. I also remember an early successful-by-my-standards-then base, realizing I'd so overbuilt my research that I had no idea how to use the techs that were pouring in and was going to run out of techs I could research with my current production before I could even figure out how to build the next packs, I can't remember the color any more, let alone actually build the production line.

My way back to at least the fringes of that territory is the Supply Challenge scenario. It's not a precise match, but having to meet those export-rate quotas and play the tradeoffs game with where to spend your excess does put a worthwhile challenge back in the early build sequence.

Hunh. I think having the original slower start available as its own scenario would be awesome.

Not sure I'd want to see them back in the main freeplay scenario though. Once you've mined all the valuables out of the early game, it should be possible, as it is, to just fastforward over it all, to rush the starter base and rely on discipline to keep from overbuilding.

[FuryoftheStars]

As some others have said, and for the same reasons, I am not a fan of gated checkpoints on research, especially in the methods of where you need to use X amount of something before you can research the next tier.