[1.0] bugs and balance issues.

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by bobingabout »

eradicator wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:17 pm
I'm currently working on a skin-changer (@Pi-C might have talked to you?) when i noticed that in bobclasses gui you use

Code: Select all

caption = {"entity-name." .. entity.name}
You should instead use

Code: Select all

caption = game.entity_prototypes[entity.name].localised_name
to respect characters with procedurally generated names.

Given that your mod probably assumes that it's the only one doing any character changes i'm not sure how important that is to you. But it should be an easy fix. And...well, experience says that localised_name is always preferred over guessing the name yourself :D.
I have actually changed entity.name to entity.prototype.localised_name in inserters mod, due to a similar error, because some I change the names of some inserters in logistics. I guess I didn't go and do the same to classes.

And yes, you can get an entity's prototype from the entity itself, you don't need to go through game.entity_prototypes[entity.name] to get it.
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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by eradicator »

bobingabout wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:13 pm
I have actually changed entity.name to entity.prototype.localised_name in inserters mod,
Ah yes, that is much nicer. Glad you agree :). Thanks.
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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by bobingabout »

eradicator wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:10 pm
bobingabout wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:13 pm
I have actually changed entity.name to entity.prototype.localised_name in inserters mod,
Ah yes, that is much nicer. Glad you agree :). Thanks.
I've made a note to do it for now. I'm still not in much of a modding mood again yet.
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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by eradicator »

bobingabout wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:29 am
eradicator wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:10 pm
bobingabout wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:13 pm
I have actually changed entity.name to entity.prototype.localised_name in inserters mod,
Ah yes, that is much nicer. Glad you agree :). Thanks.
I've made a note to do it for now. I'm still not in much of a modding mood again yet.
I see. I know that feeling very well :).
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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by Iorek »

any way to tone down Plasma cannons, they seem a bit too powerful.

esp the first one, you get with Basic electronics.
it does about 600 damage aoe at long range. I think this even beats the single target dps of the endgame Mk 3 sniper.

I feel like it removed all progression.

I was on mk1 laser, mk1 sniper and mk2 gun turrets..... now I don't see any point in building anything apart from MASSIVE RANGE, MASSIVE DEEP, AOE Plasma!

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by bobingabout »

Iorek wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:49 am
any way to tone down Plasma cannons, they seem a bit too powerful.

esp the first one, you get with Basic electronics.
it does about 600 damage aoe at long range. I think this even beats the single target dps of the endgame Mk 3 sniper.

I feel like it removed all progression.

I was on mk1 laser, mk1 sniper and mk2 gun turrets..... now I don't see any point in building anything apart from MASSIVE RANGE, MASSIVE DEEP, AOE Plasma!
It's still worth having a combination of plasma and laser. Plasma lack precision attacks, and when you get to the top end of Evolution factor and Leviathans start coming after you, they manage to get past a wall of plasmas, so you need the lasers or other closer range weapons to take them down.

I'll have a look at the damage though, see if I need to adjust it.
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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by Iorek »

Image

Image

Image

Plasma turret 1, laser turret 1, gun turret 2

This is on green science with only "red" electronic circuits unlocked. (pretty much near the "start" of the game)
you can make the t1 plasma cannon with the same mats as a basic laser before blue science.

As you see in my game, the Plasma does combined almost 2000 damage per shot (with aoe) at a range where it can shoot multiple times before enemies can fight back.
the alpha on this is so high a single turret 1-2 shots anything at 80% evolution.
raw dps on the sheet.. plasma is 1197 DPS WITH AOE!, laser is 119. gun is 336

If I remove this plasma turret the biters Break the "WALL" of lasers / gun turrets... but 1 single plasma holds them without any other turret getting into action!



I am not against uber powerful turrets :) it just seems to arrive too soon. I haven't unlocked t3-6 guns, t2-6 lasers, advanced ammo types or t2-3 snipers and they are all already obsolete.

perhaps moving plasma behind purple science, or making it need adv electronics etc?

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by mgla »

I am also here to report plasma turrets. We are fairly late game, and see Leviathans very regulary. We are about 180 hours into our game, evolution is at 0.97 and still one or two plasma turrets MK 1 obliterate everything. I cant imagine the type of enemy that requires a plasma turret MK 2 or higher.

We are thinking about removing them altogether because it simply removes any challenge

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by jurand »

Hi, I've tried Bob's mode without Bob's Adjustable Inserters and in such case long inserters are not available at all. That's quite a bummer and it's difficult to build a factory without them. Would it be problem to allow vanilla long inserters when Adjustable inserters are not installed?

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by bobingabout »

jurand wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:46 pm
Hi, I've tried Bob's mode without Bob's Adjustable Inserters and in such case long inserters are not available at all. That's quite a bummer and it's difficult to build a factory without them. Would it be problem to allow vanilla long inserters when Adjustable inserters are not installed?
This isn't entirely true. You probably have the setting for Inserter Overhaul in Bob's Logistics turned on. If this is the case, it replaces the long handed inserter with red "Fast" inserter (the blue one being Express). and rather than having a specific long handed inserter, you can turn ANY inserter into a long one.

there should be a button on the top of the screen that looks like it has a symbol of an inserter on it, pressing it opens a window that lets you turn on reach overrides, the only option without the adjustable inserters mod installed would be to set an inserter to long.
Even if it isn't there, after placing an inserter, point to it and press SHIFT+L (Or maybe CTRL+L, I forget) and it will be changed to a long inserter (or back to normal if it was already long)
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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by valneq »

wait … does that imply that "inserter overhaul" from Bob's Logistics and the mod "Adjustable Inserters" is redundant, and we don't need Adjustable inserters at all?

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by bobingabout »

valneq wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:29 pm
wait … does that imply that "inserter overhaul" from Bob's Logistics and the mod "Adjustable Inserters" is redundant, and we don't need Adjustable inserters at all?
The functions in Logistics only lets you toggle the reach of an inserter, to make any inserter long handed. Adjustable inserters does A LOT MORE than that.
Even when you don't consider the full GUI, using the same pre-place inserter configuration window as in Logistics, you can change the pickup and drop ranges independently, and set if the output is near or far side of the belt.
You can do all that with shortcut keys after placing an inserter (Shift +P, Shift +O and Shift +N for the previously mentioned actions), you can rotate the pickup (CTRL+R, Shift+R is used already to rotate an entity anticlockwise), and as of late 0.18 also the dropoff loction (CRTL+Shift+R I think).

And then if you do consider the full GUI, you can literally just pick a tile for each position, both pre-place and after placement. Opening an inserter normally will bring up a configuration window in the top left of the screen, or you can bring up only that window by pointing to an inserter and pressing Shift+E.

So yeah, While there is a function in Logistics with the inserter overhaul turned on to change any inserter into a long handed inserter, it by far does not make the adjustable inserters mod redundant.
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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by spiral_power »

Hi, Bob.
First, thank you your nice mods.
My English may not good.

I have a balance issue about uranium spend ratio.
I red some old post and found below.
viewtopic.php?p=499210#p499210

I don't use nuclear power because it decreases UPS.
My factory runs 5k hours and upgraded as 0.17 -> 1.0(revamp0.18.2) -> 1.0(revamp1.0.x, all newest ) , and I found uranium-235 surplus on 1.0 using RTG recipe.

uranium-235 spend
Now 381kspm, no enemies, uranium fuel for trains spend about 4/m in recent 1k hours ( it means uranium-235 spend 4/m ).
This is changeable ( may be less ) in 1.0 ( all newest ) because it seems circuits and some items production/spend drastically reduced.
I only run 1.0 ( all newest ) in 6 hours or so.

uranium-238 spend
7.5 uranium-238 -> 1 satellite
----
3 uranium-238 -> 4 ( = 1+3 ) plutonium-239 ( product bonus +300% )
1 plutonium-239 -> 1 RTG
10 RTG -> 1 satellite

balance check
381 satellite/m spend 2,858/m uranium-238 .
2,858 / ( 4 + 2,858 ) = 99.86%
99.86% exceeds 99.3% ( ore process ), lack of uranium-238

I know I can use nuclear power and/or I can burn in the air, but I think too many nuclear power need and that's not cool.
There must be ... Uranium 238 usages for satellite decrease 1/10 or extra spend of uranium-235 somewhere in total cycle to suit 99.3% magic number, or extra 100% uranium-238 ore process or ... something for solve this balance issue.

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by jurand »

bobingabout wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:02 pm
there should be a button on the top of the screen that looks like it has a symbol of an inserter on it, pressing it opens a window that lets you turn on reach overrides, the only option without the adjustable inserters mod installed would be to set an inserter to long.
Even if it isn't there, after placing an inserter, point to it and press SHIFT+L (Or maybe CTRL+L, I forget) and it will be changed to a long inserter (or back to normal if it was already long)
Ah, that works. Thanks a lot. Would you mind note that in description of a Logistic mod?

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by spiral_power »

Hi again.
I have a issue about statistics.
Please see below.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=90157

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by bobingabout »

spiral_power wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:17 am
Hi again.
I have a issue about statistics.
Please see below.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=90157
The recommendation is that you just don't use productivity modules at all on cyclic chains.
This is NOT because you end up with more of one product than the other, it is because productivity modules unbalance the input and output of the recipe on purpose.

Balance requires the input to be consumed at a set rate, producing resources at another set rate. If you install a productivity module, you maintain the input speed, but increase the output speed, upsetting the balance.
So, it doesn't matter if a specific recipe has a catalyst or not, simply installing a productivity module will break those cyclic recipes.

Having said that, Catalyst is only applied to the byproducts. (in the revamp mod)
Carbon Dioxode on sodium-cobaltate and the Limestone recipe (Keep in mind this one is used outside of the loop too, where Limestone is wanted, but carbon dioxide is not. in this case it makes sense that productivity modules should only give more of the thing you want.)
Water on hydrazine, nitric-oxide and sodium-carbonate
Hydrogen on sodium-chlorate, sodium-perchlorate and calcium-chloride
Salt on lithium-water-electrolysis
ammonium-chloride on sodium-bicarbonate
Oxygen on sodium-cobaltate

Examples where having the catalyst enabled and using productivity modules makes sense is the Hydrazine recipe, or the lithium-water-electrolysis recipe. These two are the finals in a loop chain, where the final product is multiplied, but the byproduct that goes back into the loop for the next production cycle is not.
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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by spiral_power »

I didn't know well about deep game system.
My issue may be just catalysts don't appear at statistics ( in & out ), is that right?
As limestone recipe, statistics gap appear whether I use productivity bonus or not.
I think it is not cool that statistics gap appear, it should be completely balanced in long term running, but you don't think so , It is ok.
I'm afraid this is a game engine issue ,but developers didn't hear me.

add: I mean product & consume completely balanced in real flow but statistics isn't !


You may know, this topic is live.
viewtopic.php?p=514448#p514448

add: This is not balanced in real flow for long term running.

If possible, you can understand what is happening with my savedata.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t0uKLB ... sp=sharing

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by moon69 »

Some errors appear in log for "Bob's Logistics" (with only "Bob's Functions Library mod" installed)...
1.268 Script @__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:540: stack traceback:
__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:540: in function 'add_prerequisite'
__boblogistics__/prototypes/technology-updates.lua:159: in main chunk
[C]: in function 'require'
__boblogistics__/data-updates.lua:10: in main chunk
1.268 Script @__boblibrary__/error-functions.lua:13: Prerequisite technology aluminium-processing does not exist.
(... also for "titanium-processing", "advanced-electronics-3", "ceramics".)
If "Robot Parts" setting is disabled, error appears for each robot part...
1.269 Script @__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:392: stack traceback:
__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:392: in function 'add_recipe_unlock'
__boblogistics__/prototypes/technology-updates.lua:211: in main chunk
[C]: in function 'require'
__boblogistics__/data-updates.lua:10: in main chunk
1.269 Script @__boblibrary__/error-functions.lua:27: Recipe robot-brain-logistic does not exist.

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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by bobingabout »

spiral_power wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:49 pm
I didn't know well about deep game system.
My issue may be just catalysts don't appear at statistics ( in & out ), is that right?
As limestone recipe, statistics gap appear whether I use productivity bonus or not.
I think it is not cool that statistics gap appear, it should be completely balanced in long term running, but you don't think so , It is ok.
I'm afraid this is a game engine issue ,but developers didn't hear me.

add: I mean product & consume completely balanced in real flow but statistics isn't !


You may know, this topic is live.
viewtopic.php?p=514448#p514448

add: This is not balanced in real flow for long term running.

If possible, you can understand what is happening with my savedata.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t0uKLB ... sp=sharing
I know what you're trying to describe.
It seems odd that the catalyst doesn't appear in the statistics screen... I do understand Why that might be the case, but not sure if I can do anything about it.
In the game, it's used where the input gives THE SAME output, On the Kovarex process. what goes in that also comes out is set as a catalyst so that those products don't appear on the statistics as something being created.

I'm using the same tag for something different, the product isn't something that goes in and comes back out, but only a Byproduct that comes out, and I'm using the catalyst tag to force it to not also be produced on the productivity run.
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Re: [1.0] bugs and balance issues.

Post by bobingabout »

moon69 wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:22 am
Some errors appear in log for "Bob's Logistics" (with only "Bob's Functions Library mod" installed)...
1.268 Script @__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:540: stack traceback:
__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:540: in function 'add_prerequisite'
__boblogistics__/prototypes/technology-updates.lua:159: in main chunk
[C]: in function 'require'
__boblogistics__/data-updates.lua:10: in main chunk
1.268 Script @__boblibrary__/error-functions.lua:13: Prerequisite technology aluminium-processing does not exist.
(... also for "titanium-processing", "advanced-electronics-3", "ceramics".)
If "Robot Parts" setting is disabled, error appears for each robot part...
1.269 Script @__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:392: stack traceback:
__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:392: in function 'add_recipe_unlock'
__boblogistics__/prototypes/technology-updates.lua:211: in main chunk
[C]: in function 'require'
__boblogistics__/data-updates.lua:10: in main chunk
1.269 Script @__boblibrary__/error-functions.lua:27: Recipe robot-brain-logistic does not exist.
Those messages are because you have bob logistics installed, but not bobplates (Metals, chemicals and intermediates)
Basically, this is one of those cases where I've let the library sort out if something should be done or not, rather than just checking if something exists, then acting accordingly if it does.
The messages (Actually, more of a warning message, they're just in a file named "error-functions", for error handling stuff) are basically saying "I didn't do what you asked me to, because the technology/item doesn't exist"

Honestly, if it works fine, but just throws up those messages, I'd rather not look into solving that issue, because Logistics mod is spaghetti code. It's one of the reasons why I haven't gone and changed it so that you can turn specific features on and off yet.
Depending how much modding I do in the future, it is something that I could eventually sort out, but... I'm not actively modding at the moment, and unsure if I'll return to it with any regularity. (I've basically only done 1 small update to the vehicle equipment mod since 1.0 was released. There's a couple of other unreleased small changes too)
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