Planned: Fuel values on fluids and Hydrogen balance. Give opinions.

[bobingabout]

Burning hydrogen creates steam so no pollution sounds about right. Unless you count fog and slightly increased rainfall as pollution. Aliens shouldn't be smart enough to notice those.

Unless they are in a desert and don't like water at all...

So maybe a separate hydrogen burner is a good idea so it can have no pollution while burning crude oil has a lot.

Since you can't choose how much pollution each fluid generates, only entity, and you can't blacklist any fluids, just filter for a specific one...
I'm going to TRY to have a standard fluid generator that produces pollution, and then specifically a hydrazine generator that doesn't. The hydrazine generator will also be tuned specifically for that fluid.

Another thing I've brought up before, there's no fluid usage scaling in the generator entity, it burns exactly as much is specified, and doesn't care about fuel value, capping it to the entities maximum.

Since I have source access, I've written a solution for that (Added tag scale_fluid_usage, default to false), and we'll see if it gets merged into the game.

Ranting about pipes

I'm just browsing code on the generator, and fluid boxes right now. I didn't even realise that fluids only flow back out of the generator when it is at least half full until I did testing over weekend. That's how much I actually pay attention to some of these things. And now that I'm looking at the code, and looking at the generator definition, it clearly states right there in the code to behave like that. Boiler input fluid box is the same.

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    fluid_box =
    {
      base_area = 1,
      height = 2,
      base_level = -1,

Base area 1 = how big the fluid box is, think of it as a 1 square meter bottom of a container
Height = 2, Height, obviously, multiply this by base area for storage capacity. so we now have a 1x1x2 metre box.
Base level-1 = set 1 meter below ground level.

So you have a box 2 meters tall, but 1 meter below ground level, so anything that flows in stays in up to that 1 meter level. Then above that, it can flow back out again.

I knew the basics of this, in fact it's fairly logical when you think it through, but didn't realise what height actually did until reading the base code.
Mining drill

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      base_area = 1,

Basically just a pipe.
Pumpjack

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      base_area = 2,
      base_level = 1,

base level 1 means 1 metre off the ground, so fluids flow out, even if the pipe next to it is almost full.
boiler output

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      base_area = 1,
      height = 2,

height 2, I guess that means it guarantees that it flows out into the generator, at least up to the half way point. It might help if it had a base_level = 1 tag adding.
assembling maching

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      {
        production_type = "input",
        base_area = 10,
        base_level = -1,
        pipe_connections = {{ type="input", position = {0.5, 1.5} }}
      },
      {
        production_type = "output",
        base_area = 10,
        base_level = 1,
        pipe_connections = {{ type="output", position = {0.5, -1.5} }}
      },

Has extra logic applied for inputs and outputs (Which actually makes it tricky to set up assembling machine based entities with a through pipe so the input can flow back out to feed the next machine. Someone did tests and it acts strange), but as you can see, basic came rules, input has base level -1, which means it always flows in, output has base level 1 which means it always flows out. however, an output from this right next to a generator (height 2) will act like it's a pipe once the generator is more than half full

[pezzawinkle]

i agree that hydrogen need a re-balance, and working backwards from the power is the way to go. However, considering the 'value add' processes should have higher fuel values, and Hydrogen is one step out of water, it should be worth processing it beyond just hydrogen for fuel. (personally you should need to feed the oxygen to get the hydrogen to burn efficiently).
On the other issue of multi-recipes, could you take inspiration from Yuoki's engines mod that takes liquid fuel, and lubricant and outputs mechanical 'fluid'.
These entities have recipe options which you can select (generally liquid fuel +water or lube to improved outputs). That would be one way of "locking" fluid inputs, but you still run into the issue of pollution for non-clean fuels.

[Aeternus]

Combustion with air will create nitrous oxigen even if you don't burn carbon based fuels. There's always some pollution.

[bobingabout]

i agree that hydrogen need a re-balance, and working backwards from the power is the way to go. However, considering the 'value add' processes should have higher fuel values, and Hydrogen is one step out of water, it should be worth processing it beyond just hydrogen for fuel. (personally you should need to feed the oxygen to get the hydrogen to burn efficiently).

If you take a look at the most recent releases, I added fuel values to a lot of fluids, but didn't add one to hydrogen... wait...

Crap, I removed the entry from the change log, but it looks like hydrogen does still actually have a fuel value set on it. I'll remove that, you're not intended to be able to burn it directly. although it does make a good fuel, you're supposed to process it into Hydrazine first.

[fiery_salmon]

Is it viable to make gas boiling power generator have really low efficiency? It would allow nice use for useless hydrogen (rather than venting it with burning animation and not getting any energy) and would not break balance.

[mrvn]

i agree that hydrogen need a re-balance, and working backwards from the power is the way to go. However, considering the 'value add' processes should have higher fuel values, and Hydrogen is one step out of water, it should be worth processing it beyond just hydrogen for fuel. (personally you should need to feed the oxygen to get the hydrogen to burn efficiently).

If you take a look at the most recent releases, I added fuel values to a lot of fluids, but didn't add one to hydrogen... wait...

Crap, I removed the entry from the change log, but it looks like hydrogen does still actually have a fuel value set on it. I'll remove that, you're not intended to be able to burn it directly. although it does make a good fuel, you're supposed to process it into Hydrazine first.

Hydrazine is way to complex and far down the tech tree while you get a huge excess of hydrogen early in the game.

There really should be a hydrogen + oxygen burning process that doesn't cost power like putting it in a flare stack.

[bobingabout]

i agree that hydrogen need a re-balance, and working backwards from the power is the way to go. However, considering the 'value add' processes should have higher fuel values, and Hydrogen is one step out of water, it should be worth processing it beyond just hydrogen for fuel. (personally you should need to feed the oxygen to get the hydrogen to burn efficiently).

If you take a look at the most recent releases, I added fuel values to a lot of fluids, but didn't add one to hydrogen... wait...

Crap, I removed the entry from the change log, but it looks like hydrogen does still actually have a fuel value set on it. I'll remove that, you're not intended to be able to burn it directly. although it does make a good fuel, you're supposed to process it into Hydrazine first.

Hydrazine is way to complex and far down the tech tree while you get a huge excess of hydrogen early in the game.

There really should be a hydrogen + oxygen burning process that doesn't cost power like putting it in a flare stack.

well, there is the fuel block recipe before then.

[mrvn]

i agree that hydrogen need a re-balance, and working backwards from the power is the way to go. However, considering the 'value add' processes should have higher fuel values, and Hydrogen is one step out of water, it should be worth processing it beyond just hydrogen for fuel. (personally you should need to feed the oxygen to get the hydrogen to burn efficiently).

If you take a look at the most recent releases, I added fuel values to a lot of fluids, but didn't add one to hydrogen... wait...

Crap, I removed the entry from the change log, but it looks like hydrogen does still actually have a fuel value set on it. I'll remove that, you're not intended to be able to burn it directly. although it does make a good fuel, you're supposed to process it into Hydrazine first.

Hydrazine is way to complex and far down the tech tree while you get a huge excess of hydrogen early in the game.

There really should be a hydrogen + oxygen burning process that doesn't cost power like putting it in a flare stack.

well, there is the fuel block recipe before then.

Rotol tells me there is solid fuel from Hydrogen + coal (needs green science). I don't want to waste coal coal and in seablock green science is a long way away from the start. A lot of hydrogen flared when you can spare power the least.

[Arch666Angel]

i agree that hydrogen need a re-balance, and working backwards from the power is the way to go. However, considering the 'value add' processes should have higher fuel values, and Hydrogen is one step out of water, it should be worth processing it beyond just hydrogen for fuel. (personally you should need to feed the oxygen to get the hydrogen to burn efficiently).

If you take a look at the most recent releases, I added fuel values to a lot of fluids, but didn't add one to hydrogen... wait...

Crap, I removed the entry from the change log, but it looks like hydrogen does still actually have a fuel value set on it. I'll remove that, you're not intended to be able to burn it directly. although it does make a good fuel, you're supposed to process it into Hydrazine first.

Hydrazine is way to complex and far down the tech tree while you get a huge excess of hydrogen early in the game.

There really should be a hydrogen + oxygen burning process that doesn't cost power like putting it in a flare stack.

well, there is the fuel block recipe before then.

Rotol tells me there is solid fuel from Hydrogen + coal (needs green science). I don't want to waste coal coal and in seablock green science is a long way away from the start. A lot of hydrogen flared when you can spare power the least.

Hydrogen + Oxygen? So you would need to balance it out so that it wont give any surplus if you get both from electrolysis? Some things are doable IRL but they dont make much sense in a game balancing perspective.

[bobingabout]

it has purpose irl, such as rocket fuel. but in factorio, it wouldn't make much sense, with 100% efficiency you'd get out what you put in, but it shouldn't be 100% efficient, it should be lower, meaning you lose energy making it pointless.
it also makes burning excess hydrogen pointless, because you won't have excess oxygen to use to burn it, it'll literally just cost the outputs of electrolysis.

[fiery_salmon]

it has purpose irl, such as rocket fuel. but in factorio, it wouldn't make much sense, with 100% efficiency you'd get out what you put in, but it shouldn't be 100% efficient, it should be lower, meaning you lose energy making it pointless.
it also makes burning excess hydrogen pointless, because you won't have excess oxygen to use to burn it, it'll literally just cost the outputs of electrolysis.

So I guess that dirt water electrolysis was added by SeaBlock (one producing slag + hydrogen + oxygen)...

[mrvn]

it has purpose irl, such as rocket fuel. but in factorio, it wouldn't make much sense, with 100% efficiency you'd get out what you put in, but it shouldn't be 100% efficient, it should be lower, meaning you lose energy making it pointless.
it also makes burning excess hydrogen pointless, because you won't have excess oxygen to use to burn it, it'll literally just cost the outputs of electrolysis.

Unless all you need is the slag or you have excess oxygen from nitrogen processing and excess hydrogen from Lithium chloride Electrolysis for example. Imho hydrogen should be usable as fuel as is or with oxygene for more efficiency. Actually I think all fuels could accept oxygen for an extra boost. This would add another option for balancing excess gases.

[bobingabout]

Except accepting just one fluid as a fuel is already a fairly hackish modification of the generator, having a requirement of 2 different fluids would have to basically be an assembling machine recipe doing something funky with scripting.

As you already know, I'm trying to avoid scripting. Inserters GUI is an exception to that rule, as is the clock, and the new classes/bodies stuff. (And Classes is still a prototype, I'd love feedback and suggestions on this)

[bobingabout]

Power 0.16.2:
Added fast replace group to medium power poles.
Decreased collision box of substation so it is possible to walk between it and other entities.
Added fuel value of 4.6MJ to Petroleum Gas.
Added fuel value of 3MJ to Light oil.
Added fuel value of 2MJ to Heavy oil.
Added base_level = 1 to all boiler output fluid boxes.
Added fluid generators 40% efficient MK1 55% MK2 70% MK3 and 90% Hydrazine (Recommend version 0.16.26 for these)


If you use version 0.16.26, the game will scale fluid usage and produce pollution when you use the fluid generators.

[ukezi]

did you set the new flag for fluid scaling for the steam generators as well? As it is the combination of boiler 3 and engine 2( both red+green tech) is not more efficient because of the wasted temperature.

[bobingabout]

did you set the new flag for fluid scaling for the steam generators as well? As it is the combination of boiler 3 and engine 2( both red+green tech) is not more efficient because of the wasted temperature.

No, I haven't, but that's because I was considering going back over and revisiting steam generators shortly.

[mrvn]

What exactly does that flag do? (assume you set the flag for steam engines)

If I put 300° steam into a steam engine wanting 200° steam does that mean it will only consume half as much steam?

[bobingabout]

What exactly does that flag do? (assume you set the flag for steam engines)

If I put 300° steam into a steam engine wanting 200° steam does that mean it will only consume half as much steam?

A bit more maths involved than that, because it's expected divided by provided, but for steam the offset is starting temperature of the water, not zero. So you have (200 - 15) / (300 - 15) = 65%

But yeah, it will consume 65% of the fluid IF you set it on a steam engine.

The devs did suggest that I just hard code it in that steam acts as it does now, but fuel does this scaling(based off the burns_fuel tag)... and I'm like... I could do that... or I could just add another tag for this feature, then the modder can use it or not on either method. So that's how I wrote it.

[mrvn]

What exactly does that flag do? (assume you set the flag for steam engines)

If I put 300° steam into a steam engine wanting 200° steam does that mean it will only consume half as much steam?

A bit more maths involved than that, because it's expected divided by provided, but for steam the offset is starting temperature of the water, not zero. So you have (200 - 15) / (300 - 15) = 65%

But yeah, it will consume 65% of the fluid IF you set it on a steam engine.

The devs did suggest that I just hard code it in that steam acts as it does now, but fuel does this scaling(based off the burns_fuel tag)... and I'm like... I could do that... or I could just add another tag for this feature, then the modder can use it or not on either method. So that's how I wrote it.

I always thought the inefficiency of boilers and steam engines could be explained by the fact they they need steam and you have to heat water up to 100°C first and change it to steam first. (so usable energy is everything above 100). But that would probably have been to realistic.

[BlueTemplar]

Crude Oil would have a value of 3.8MJ, except I don't want it to be usable as a fuel directly, so I'm not giving it a fuel value.

Why not?
It confuses people, as you've called it "Oil burning generator", but unlike the FlameThrower turrets, it can't burn crude oil !
(Which also, as you know, can't burn Petroleum Gas (aka Ethylene - Propane/Butane)...

So, they wonder if you can only burn a very specific fuel in them :

oil_burning_generator_confusion_smaller.png (181.53 KiB) Viewed 5091 times

... and fluid burning is kind of harder to do than just sticking a solid fuel into a burner, so they don't bother trying other fluids !

Also, have you noticed this tidbit from the vanilla fluid.lua?

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  {
    type = "fluid",
    name = "crude-oil",
    default_temperature = 25,
    heat_capacity = "0.1KJ",
[...]
    max_temperature = 100,
[...]
    pressure_to_speed_ratio = 0.4,
    flow_to_energy_ratio = 0.59,
    -- fuel_value = "8MJ", <<<==================[[[
[...]
  },

(Though, no idea how old that is, might need to be 0.8MJ(/L) after the x10 fluid rebalance?