[0.15.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[Recon777]

They even outrange flame turrets?

Currently mk1 sniper turrets are all you need to defend yourself from early game to end game, and they only cost iron and copper, and they make very efficient use of bullets. If they were a later tech then at least you'd need to use other turrets early on.

What alien settings are you using?
Mk1 sniper turrets are not going to last long. I'm only ten hours into my current save and I'm already seeing swarms nearly able to punch through a line of a dozen Mk2 sniper turrets.

I have a feeling you're playing on easy settings. The game needs to be balanced so it is still possible in the very difficult alien settings. Then, with that as a benchmark, if people want less of a challenge, they can tone it down within the settings. But the balance and progression should never be such that it is seriously difficult on "default" settings and physically impossible on "death world".

I'm even doing shameless turret creeping with the sniper turrets, as I mentioned, and it's still quite a challenge. The grenades are completely useless, and the SMG with red bullets is "okay" for small hordes but things are not rapidly getting to the point where I'd just get mowed down instantly if I didn't turret creep. And I put heavy focus on military advancement from the very start.

[Recon777]

Balance question:

I just noticed that getting sulfur dioxide from lead processing requires 10 oxygen to get 10 sulfur dioxide. But if you go with nickel processing, it only requires 8 oxygen to get 10 sulfur dioxide. Is this arbitrary or was there a reason?


Also, I'm looking over the process of getting cobalt from a balance perspective, and (using lead processing) I've worked out the following numbers:

80x pure water = 100x oxygen + 160x hyrogen *
35x copper ore + 5x stone + 5x carbon + 25x hydrogen * = 45x copper plate + 10x cobalt oxide
10x galena + 100x oxygen = 100x sulfur dioxide + 10x lead oxide
100x sulfur dioxide = 100x sulfuric acid
10x cobalt oxide + 100x sulfuric acid = 10 cobalt plate

* Notable here is that this process produces 160x hydrogen but only consumes 25x of it, meaning the excess (quite a bit) must be vented, stored, or routed elsewhere.

I still don't consider cobalt processing to be anything close to an "early game" system. It's fairly complex, mostly because of the gas balance and the fact that the product you WANT (cobalt) is actually a byproduct of the system. For 10 cobalt plates, you also end up with 10x lead plates and 45x copper plates. I haven't run the numbers for the less-complex nickel route, though I think since galena is a starting resource, it's more likely someone would use that anyway.

What I'll probably end up doing is making a minimalist balanced blueprint that can actually produce cobalt plates and see at what point it can be incorporated into the early game.

[edit]

It's worth noting that you DON'T need a lot of cobalt with its current uses. 1 cobalt plate gets you 10x cobalt steel plates. And both Mk3 mining drills require 10x of those. So that means it only costs ONE cobalt plate per mining drill. Easy peasy in terms of quantity. I don't think you'll ever have to mass produce the stuff. Unless Bob has plans to increase cobalt's usage?




[edit 2]

Well, I took it as a challenge to see just how compact I could make a cobalt processing line. Turns out it got pretty tight!!
The only thing not from Bob's in there is Flow Control's Overflow Valve for the hyrogen.
Here's the bp string if anyone wants it. ^_^

Code: Select all

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

[orzelek]

They even outrange flame turrets?

Currently mk1 sniper turrets are all you need to defend yourself from early game to end game, and they only cost iron and copper, and they make very efficient use of bullets. If they were a later tech then at least you'd need to use other turrets early on.

What alien settings are you using?
Mk1 sniper turrets are not going to last long. I'm only ten hours into my current save and I'm already seeing swarms nearly able to punch through a line of a dozen Mk2 sniper turrets.

***

Just a hint - don't use only sniper turrets. Thats why you have more problems - sniper turrets have one serious drawback - they shoot slowly. Swarms of smaller enemies will get to them easily due to that.
If you mix in gun turrets and/or lasers (I only did this with gun ones) then you might get much better effects. With big swarms of enemies dual row of turrets (gun up front, belt+inserters for ammo, snipers out back) will make much better job in defending. Snipers thing out enemies and gun turrets dps anything that comes closer.

[orzelek]

Is there some specific way to enable alien science pack or it's not there any more?

I have alien artifacts enabled and bobtech mod but I don't see alien tech packs anywhere.

[Recon777]

Is there some specific way to enable alien science pack or it's not there any more?

I have alien artifacts enabled and bobtech mod but I don't see alien tech packs anywhere.

It's in the mod options. Might be a startup menu option, I don't recall offhand. But it's definitely in there.

[orzelek]

Is there some specific way to enable alien science pack or it's not there any more?

I have alien artifacts enabled and bobtech mod but I don't see alien tech packs anywhere.

It's in the mod options. Might be a startup menu option, I don't recall offhand. But it's definitely in there.

I looked through them and enabled alien artifacts (not the coloured ones) and I expected alien science pack to appear. But it doesn't seem to be present so I'm guessing I'm missing something.

[bobingabout]

Is there some specific way to enable alien science pack or it's not there any more?

I have alien artifacts enabled and bobtech mod but I don't see alien tech packs anywhere.

The way things are set up you need coloured artifacts too, that will create the lab and all alien science packs, along with science pack gold (which costs 1, 2, 3 and military)

[orzelek]

Is there some specific way to enable alien science pack or it's not there any more?

I have alien artifacts enabled and bobtech mod but I don't see alien tech packs anywhere.

The way things are set up you need coloured artifacts too, that will create the lab and all alien science packs, along with science pack gold (which costs 1, 2, 3 and military)

Thats what I expected.. so what are the benefits of enabling only basic alien artifacts without colored variety?

[bobingabout]

Some recipes may use them.

May also be used by other mods? I dunno.

[NewSwiss]

One normally thinks of a grenade as a... weapon.

Yes, but not a really good one. At least not for most things. IRL, grenades are used for clearing bad-guys out of rooms or trenches where line-of-sight is not an option. They aren't so effective in general combat on open ground because of their limited range and rate of fire (ooh, that brings up an idea – grenade launcher).

I haven't tried tanks in a while though. I wasn't impressed with their mobility challenges in vanilla. What do you normally use when you're about up to early blue science and the evolution factor is at 50%?

IMO, tanks have always been viable. If nothing else, they give you an armored platform which can "tank" damage while you spew out piercing ammo and cannon shells at spawners, then clean the biters up afterwards. The tactic is basically to drive in wide circles, taking care to keep the biters from surrounding you. At higher evolution factors, it still works, though the challenge definitely goes up.

Notable here is that this process produces 160x hydrogen but only consumes 25x of it, meaning the excess (quite a bit) must be vented, stored, or routed elsewhere.

I usually end up with tons of hydrogen building up in tanks. Luckily, Bob adds some pretty big tanks, so it doesn't take up too much room. If nothing else, you can pipe that hydrogen into making solid fuel to power your factory. Plus in the later game it should have some applications in rocket fuel (though I'm currently playing with Angel's petrochem, so I can't recall if that's true in Bob's).

I don't think you'll ever have to mass produce the stuff. Unless Bob has plans to increase cobalt's usage?

It is needed for lithium batteries, which are used in science now. But I suspect you are correct in that you will always have more cobalt than you need. That's one thing I really like about angel's metallurgy/smelting: you can turn excess nickel and cobalt into iron and steel.

[Recon777]

IMO, tanks have always been viable. If nothing else, they give you an armored platform which can "tank" damage while you spew out piercing ammo and cannon shells at spawners, then clean the biters up afterwards. The tactic is basically to drive in wide circles, taking care to keep the biters from surrounding you. At higher evolution factors, it still works, though the challenge definitely goes up.

Must be a skill to develop, as the times I've tried it I usually get gummed up with trees, which kills your speed and lets you get swarmed. Was a while ago though, so I may give tanks another shot. Especially if I can mount a flamer on it.

I usually end up with tons of hydrogen building up in tanks. Luckily, Bob adds some pretty big tanks, so it doesn't take up too much room. If nothing else, you can pipe that hydrogen into making solid fuel to power your factory. Plus in the later game it should have some applications in rocket fuel (though I'm currently playing with Angel's petrochem, so I can't recall if that's true in Bob's).

Yeah, I think the hardest part is probably managing the mismatched ratios causing excess. I've been thinking of building a "gasses" construct which has buffers for all types since you never know which you're going to be drawing from. And yeah, with excess hydrogen, that can definitely be routed into solid fuel production. I think I may end up making good use of the Flow Control mod and its "top up" and "overflow" valves. For example, when making solid fuel, I have dedicated electrolysers for making that hydrogen. But if I already have excess hydrogen from elsewhere, it should prioritize that rather than spending power making new hydrogen. As for storage, I use Angel's pressure tanks because they look so badass and hold a ton. Though I may have to rebalance their cost vs Bob's storage tanks. I love how cheap they are. Undecided.

It is needed for lithium batteries, which are used in science now. But I suspect you are correct in that you will always have more cobalt than you need. That's one thing I really like about angel's metallurgy/smelting: you can turn excess nickel and cobalt into iron and steel.

Absolutely you need a LOT more cobalt for lithium batteries later, and that build I posted will not work for that. This is strictly for making cobalt steel for the purpose of Mk3 miners.

[bobingabout]

I suppose it depends what you're using the gasses for, but I tend to opt for a central bus type fluid system. Rather than fluids being made as and when you need them(And I'm talking main fluids here like the 3 main oil products + sulfuric acid, and the 4 main gasses), and using this system, Hydrogen actually seems to be the one that gets low first, despite being generated in large quantities by water electrolysis, and also by salt water electrolysis.

[Recon777]

I suppose it depends what you're using the gasses for, but I tend to opt for a central bus type fluid system. Rather than fluids being made as and when you need them(And I'm talking main fluids here like the 3 main oil products + sulfuric acid, and the 4 main gasses), and using this system, Hydrogen actually seems to be the one that gets low first, despite being generated in large quantities by water electrolysis, and also by salt water electrolysis.

That does make a lot of sense. Like that solid fuel plant I built vents a LOT of oxygen, wasting what could be useful for other processes. It's just that these gasses are all used by unrelated things so there will be unpredictable draws on them, right? The problem comes from production of the one you need being blocked because you have too much stored of the other kind. I'm definitely going to make use of Flow Control's overflow valves I think. I used to have a combinator setup with gas vents, but it's a lot of trouble (and bulk) trying to keep all that working.

[crysanja]

Small issue with the spawn rate of ores.

I put the resources to very few patches, however i find lots and lots of the same stuff, close together.
I did very little exploration(about an area of 5-7 radar2) and i already found 2x gold, 4xnickel, 3xbauxit, 3xrutile, 2x zinc, 2xoil and lots of other things.

Here is a map:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6z8yK ... sp=sharing

[Recon777]

ewww. I recommend using RSO, to be honest. That mod has been tweaked to produce a pretty sweet Bob's Ores layout.

[ukezi]

year without rso there just are ore patches everywhere

[Recon777]

Why do the Mk3 boilers require invar and brass, but the Mk3 steam engines require titanium? Seems to be quite the tech disparity there.

[crysanja]

Oh i asked something like that before too @Recon777.
Invar and brass are heat resistant materials and the titanium is tough for the moving parts.

[Recon777]

Oh i asked something like that before too @Recon777.
Invar and brass are heat resistant materials and the titanium is tough for the moving parts.

Yeah, but it's an entirely different tech level. You get invar and brass LONG before titanium in the game. Incidentally, I figured what the heck since the Mk3 boilers are more efficient, maybe I could just upgrade those and run my Mk2 steam engines off them. Turns out they consume fuel even faster, despite the fact that the Mk2 engines don't need as much steam as the Mk3 ones do. Which is weird since I know boilers/engines scale their fuel consumption to match electric demand. Not sure what happened there.

[NewSwiss]

The problem comes from production of the one you need being blocked because you have too much stored of the other kind.

You can solve this with lots of fluid storage and pumps, though it requires separate input lines from production to the buffer/storage.

Incidentally, I figured what the heck since the Mk3 boilers are more efficient, maybe I could just upgrade those and run my Mk2 steam engines off them. Turns out they consume fuel even faster, despite the fact that the Mk2 engines don't need as much steam as the Mk3 ones do. Which is weird since I know boilers/engines scale their fuel consumption to match electric demand. Not sure what happened there.

The higher-tier boilers output hotter steam. I think (though I'm not sure) that this makes the steam count for more as far as the generators are concerned, so you are better off using them.