[0.15.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[British_Petroleum]

Iron pipes have always done the job for me, occasionally I'll use tungsten for the long underground distance. In terms of throughput, the best solution by far is to not use pipes at all and instead use barrels/bottles + bots

[nagapito]

As far as pipes go, I do find the sheer variety of pipes in Bob's to be too much. Though I will admit that I have zero understanding of when 5, 10, or 20 size is better (maybe someone could explain it better) I still don't get how in the world size 5 would make things have a higher throughput. I get that it could flow "faster", but in terms of throughput, shouldn't size 20 always win? Also what in the world is this discussion of thickness??

Idk. I'd vote to pare down the number of pipes.

Its like a small rapid river and a large calm river. The huge river will move more water but it moves slowly, so whiel it moves more water in a period of time,that water doesnt actually goo too far.
The rapids... compared to the big river, is not a lot of water passing in the same period of time, but it goes fast and will reach way further then the big river.

This is, when we talk about fliuds propagation speed and how further fluids reach, small pipes are rapid rivers and big pipes are the big river.
But... when we talk about amount of delivered fluids on the same period of time, while small pipes are the rapid river, large pipes are more like a slow small river, not a big one. Still slow and delivers more, but not that huge of a difference on the amount delivered.

[Crixomix]

As far as pipes go, I do find the sheer variety of pipes in Bob's to be too much. Though I will admit that I have zero understanding of when 5, 10, or 20 size is better (maybe someone could explain it better) I still don't get how in the world size 5 would make things have a higher throughput. I get that it could flow "faster", but in terms of throughput, shouldn't size 20 always win? Also what in the world is this discussion of thickness??

Idk. I'd vote to pare down the number of pipes.

Its like a small rapid river and a large calm river. The huge river will move more water but it moves slowly, so whiel it moves more water in a period of time,that water doesnt actually goo too far.
The rapids... compared to the big river, is not a lot of water passing in the same period of time, but it goes fast and will reach way further then the big river.

This is, when we talk about fliuds propagation speed and how further fluids reach, small pipes are rapid rivers and big pipes are the big river.
But... when we talk about amount of delivered fluids on the same period of time, while small pipes are the rapid river, large pipes are more like a slow small river, not a big one. Still slow and delivers more, but not that huge of a difference on the amount delivered.

I understand the idea, but I'm not understanding if a small pipe CAN deliver more throughput? if so, please explain how. If they both deliver the same throughput over a period of time, then I'm fine on the understanding piece.

[bobingabout]

Idk. I'd vote to pare down the number of pipes.

I think we're forgetting the main reason why where are more types is because the different types are used in different entity constructions. Tungsten is one of the heat resistant types used in the chemical furnaces, non metal pipes like stone, plastic and ceramic are used in the electrolyser, etc.
so we have multiple types of pipe, it wouldn't make much sense that you can only place the iron pipe, and not the rest, so I made it so all 10 types could be placeable.
and if they're all placeable, why should they all be the same? and that's how it happened.

[Recon777]

This may just be my silly "common sense" speaking, but doesn't it seem a bit weird to take ordinary water (aka salt water) and then distil it, then add salt back into it so that you can do saltwater electrolysis?

This is part of my plastic line:
Also, why are there two identical recipes in the distillery?

Further thoughts: Would it make sense to have salt be a byproduct of the distillery? Please say no because where would we put it all? lol

[Crixomix]

Idk. I'd vote to pare down the number of pipes.

I think we're forgetting the main reason why where are more types is because the different types are used in different entity constructions. Tungsten is one of the heat resistant types used in the chemical furnaces, non metal pipes like stone, plastic and ceramic are used in the electrolyser, etc.
so we have multiple types of pipe, it wouldn't make much sense that you can only place the iron pipe, and not the rest, so I made it so all 10 types could be placeable.
and if they're all placeable, why should they all be the same? and that's how it happened.

I think that makes a lot of sense. I guess I'd just say, for my thinking, that if they're important enough to differentiate for entity construction (rather than just having more tungsten, more plastic, etc. in the recipes), then we should figure out a way to make them different enough as actual entities. So my understanding of why size of pipes matters is the issue here. Because if size matters (heh) and bigger is better, then why not have better pipes be bigger and bigger? Instead of this strange 5/10/20/5/10/20 cycle? I just don't quite get why that's "good". I'm operating under the assumption that throughput doesn't care about pipe size as long as none of the pipes are maxed out, and so bigger pipes have a bigger throughput ceiling?

So if my assumptions are right, we could just order the pipe size/underground distance hierarchy by order of scarcity. Iron, Copper, Stone, etc. Maybe only increasing in size by 2 and underground distance by 1 with each tier.

[nagapito]

As far as pipes go, I do find the sheer variety of pipes in Bob's to be too much. Though I will admit that I have zero understanding of when 5, 10, or 20 size is better (maybe someone could explain it better) I still don't get how in the world size 5 would make things have a higher throughput. I get that it could flow "faster", but in terms of throughput, shouldn't size 20 always win? Also what in the world is this discussion of thickness??

Idk. I'd vote to pare down the number of pipes.

Its like a small rapid river and a large calm river. The huge river will move more water but it moves slowly, so whiel it moves more water in a period of time,that water doesnt actually goo too far.
The rapids... compared to the big river, is not a lot of water passing in the same period of time, but it goes fast and will reach way further then the big river.

This is, when we talk about fliuds propagation speed and how further fluids reach, small pipes are rapid rivers and big pipes are the big river.
But... when we talk about amount of delivered fluids on the same period of time, while small pipes are the rapid river, large pipes are more like a slow small river, not a big one. Still slow and delivers more, but not that huge of a difference on the amount delivered.

I understand the idea, but I'm not understanding if a small pipe CAN deliver more throughput? if so, please explain how. If they both deliver the same throughput over a period of time, then I'm fine on the understanding piece.

If you read carefully you will notice I say that bigger pipes have MORE throughput put, not much but they have! The thing is, they have more from full pipe A to empty adjacent pipe B. Since he rapidly looses pressure over distance, after a couple pipes it actually has less throughout then a small pipe since small pipes still keep the pressure while big ones dont.

For some reason, the hose you use to wash your car (if you have one and do it) its like half an inch diameter (or something else, I use metric system)and not bigger. Because the water would loose pressure and never would reach the end of the hose and the one that reached was a trickle without any pressure.

[Crixomix]

If you read carefully you will notice I say that bigger pipes have MORE throughput put, not much but they have! The thing is, they have more from full pipe A to empty adjacent pipe B. Since he rapidly looses pressure over distance, after a couple pipes it actually has less throughout then a small pipe since small pipes still keep the pressure while big ones dont.

For some reason, the hose you use to wash your car (if you have one and do it) its like half an inch diameter (or something else, I use metric system)and not bigger. Because the water would loose pressure and never would reach the end of the hose and the one that reached was a trickle without any pressure.

Okay. Your analogy really isn't working, because factorio isn't about water pressure, it's simply about amounts. It's not like an oil well creates a constant pressure. It's simply ADDING liquid to the pipe in front of it. And when a pipe has more than the one next to it, they try to balance out. This creatures an illusion of pressure, but no such mechanic actually exists.

So if I have 1,000 pipes of size 5, or 1,000 pipes of size 20, the 5 oil that the oil well outputs is going to reach the other side eventually in both cases (though in practice, some oil is left "sitting" in the pipes, and there will be more sitting oil in the size 20 pipes, which means there's a little bit of "overhead"). But if my oil well went super-saiyan and started producing 20 oil per tick, then the size 20 pipe chain is going to get more oil out the other side.

So I'll repeat my question. Why would you ever use size 5 pipes. Sure I get that there's slightly less lag time (meaning the oil rush from the output well gets to the other side slightly faster) but that's literally never been something that matters for me in factorio.

[nagapito]

If you read carefully you will notice I say that bigger pipes have MORE throughput put, not much but they have! The thing is, they have more from full pipe A to empty adjacent pipe B. Since he rapidly looses pressure over distance, after a couple pipes it actually has less throughout then a small pipe since small pipes still keep the pressure while big ones dont.

For some reason, the hose you use to wash your car (if you have one and do it) its like half an inch diameter (or something else, I use metric system)and not bigger. Because the water would loose pressure and never would reach the end of the hose and the one that reached was a trickle without any pressure.

Okay. Your analogy really isn't working, because factorio isn't about water pressure, it's simply about amounts. It's not like an oil well creates a constant pressure. It's simply ADDING liquid to the pipe in front of it. And when a pipe has more than the one next to it, they try to balance out. This creatures an illusion of pressure, but no such mechanic actually exists.

So if I have 1,000 pipes of size 5, or 1,000 pipes of size 20, the 5 oil that the oil well outputs is going to reach the other side eventually in both cases (though in practice, some oil is left "sitting" in the pipes, and there will be more sitting oil in the size 20 pipes, which means there's a little bit of "overhead"). But if my oil well went super-saiyan and started producing 20 oil per tick, then the size 20 pipe chain is going to get more oil out the other side.

So I'll repeat my question. Why would you ever use size 5 pipes. Sure I get that there's slightly less lag time (meaning the oil rush from the output well gets to the other side slightly faster) but that's literally never been something that matters for me in factorio.

https://wiki.factorio.com/Liquids/Pipe_ ... Pressure_2

[Crixomix]

https://wiki.factorio.com/Liquids/Pipe_ ... Pressure_2

You realize this article says exactly what I just said right? Pressure is not a real mechanic. In that article it literally says pressure = current level / max level. So pressure is really the wrong word for it, it's more like "fill level". And the mechanic is simply a balancing mechanic. If a pipe has more liquid than the one next to it, it gives some of its liquid to that pipe. This is not pressure, it's about amounts and balancing. And once again, there's absolutely nothing here to imply that a size 5 pipe would ever be better than a size 20. (except to reduce lag time, which, like I mentioned, is never valuable)

[bobingabout]

bigger pipes mean slower flow in this game, it's just the way things are implemented.

Why add salt to pure water electrolysis?
well, you want as pure a sample as possible so you can imagine that distilling the water does more than just make salt, it could remove other impurities.

also, salt water electrolysis is a misleading name, a more accurate description would be brine electrolysis, you're probably putting in 100 times the salt as you started with in the salt water.

currently rocket fuel from Bob's revamp is available from the start of the game.
Not sure if that's correct.

I figured out the issue. Apparantly the enable tag fails to copy because it sees "false" as "nil".

[Crixomix]

bigger pipes mean slower flow in this game, it's just the way things are implemented.

Do you have some sort of post explaining the science behind this?

What do you mean by "slower". Do you literally mean that the maximum throughput over a given period of time is LESS when the pipes have more capacity?

[bobingabout]

bigger pipes mean slower flow in this game, it's just the way things are implemented.

Do you have some sort of post explaining the science behind this?

What do you mean by "slower". Do you literally mean that the maximum throughput over a given period of time is LESS when the pipes have more capacity?

that's what I mean, yes.

Think of it this way. If you created a very long chain of storage tanks along side a chain of pipes, the fluid will flow very fast down the pipe and quickly reach the other end, yet the storage tank will take a while to fill a little ways before the contents start to spill out into the next tank.

Tanks and Pipes are all just entities with a fluid box, so a larger pipe functions the same was as a small storage tank. So when you make the capacity of the pipe bigger, you make the FLOW slower. the result is that the fluid doesn't travel as far or as fast as the smaller pipes.

[Mobius1]

Do you have some sort of post explaining the science behind this?

What do you mean by "slower". Do you literally mean that the maximum throughput over a given period of time is LESS when the pipes have more capacity?

Regarding pipe mechanics:
0.15 made fluid transfer speed to 1500u/s from pipe A to pipe B.
The capacity of the pipe will determinate the rate that it'll fill up or empty out standard pipe of size 100 will transport fluids at a rate of 1500u/s
If you increase the pipe size to 20, the flow rate will be half since it'll have double the time to fill up and double the time to empty out, so 750u/s
if you decrease the size of the pipe to 5, it'll double the flow rate, since its half the time to fill up and empty out, so 3000u/s

Pipe-to-Pipe connections have this flow cap limit, Entity-to-entity or entity-to-tank doesn't have flow cap, so you can barrel fluid from a tank at full speed while from a pipe you'll be limited to the pipe's flow cap.

*Pumps now have a flow value of 12000u/s

Vanilla pipes will lose 300pu per pipe, what this means is that for each pipe you have connected, you'll suffer a 300u/s delay on the fluid flow, this delay is not dependant on the pipe size. To keep the "pressure" (meaning removing the delay on the pipes) you'll need 1 pump every 4 pipe sections (12000/4*300 = 100 size of 1 pipe).
*Previously you would need 5 pumps to keep the pressure of 150u/s.

[Crixomix]

bigger pipes mean slower flow in this game, it's just the way things are implemented.

Do you have some sort of post explaining the science behind this?

What do you mean by "slower". Do you literally mean that the maximum throughput over a given period of time is LESS when the pipes have more capacity?

that's what I mean, yes.

Think of it this way. If you created a very long chain of storage tanks along side a chain of pipes, the fluid will flow very fast down the pipe and quickly reach the other end, yet the storage tank will take a while to fill a little ways before the contents start to spill out into the next tank.

Tanks and Pipes are all just entities with a fluid box, so a larger pipe functions the same was as a small storage tank. So when you make the capacity of the pipe bigger, you make the FLOW slower. the result is that the fluid doesn't travel as far or as fast as the smaller pipes.

Sorry to keep asking questions bob, but I'm still not quite there. I get that fluid would flow more slowly, in terms of getting from one side to the other. But over a long period of time, won't the throughput be the same? Like I get that more oil will "sit" in the bigger pipes, because a 10% "pressure" in a big pipe is 2 oil, whereas a 10% pressure in a small pipe is only .5 oil. But I don't understand how that affects throughput over a long period of time.

The way that I'm imagining it is like a ramp. If you were to graph the "amount" of oil in each pipe over a 100unit pipeline with a constant input on one end (lets say 10oil/s) and an output that "eats" all the oil. Then eventually the amount of oil in each pipe would stabalize. So this graph would look like a downward ramp, with the last pipe before the output being essentially empty because anything that goes in immediately goes out. But the first pipe would have some amount of "fullness" because fluids don't move instantly.

So essentially this "ramp" is like the oil overhead cost, because it needs to be built up before oil can get from one side to the other. In the case of 5 unit pipes, the ramp is fairly short (as in, not tall) which means the overhead cost to get oil flowing isn't very high. Whereas if you had oil tanks, this overhead cost would be much higher, since the height of the ramp would shoot up crazy high. BUT, once you've built the "ramp" aka paid the overhead cost of oil, wouldn't it still flow at the same rate? If your oil pump is pumping at 5 units per second, for a while, most of that oil is going into the pipe system. But eventually, the input is 5 units/s and the output has to also equal 5 units/s, otherwise the pipes would be eating oil, which I'm pretty sure doesn't happen.

So I'll restate my question again maybe this time it'll make more sense. Once the pipes are "full" with enough oil, wouldn't size 20 pipes have a higher potential throughput because the "fullest" pipe has 4x more oil than with the smaller ones? Lets say you had an infinite source that provides infinity oil per tick. Then you had a pipeline of 50, 100, and 1000 pipes. You're saying the 5 size pipes would end up throughputting MORE of the infinite oil over the course of 20 minutes than the 20 size pipes would?

Promise this is my last question on the topic, I'm going to go home and do some research after work today and see if I can't understand it a little better

[nagapito]

Bob, just found this command on reddit and in case you didnt know it since its not on wikis, here it is

game.player.force.reset_technology_effects()

This is the supposedly the same as checking if technology is researched then enable all the recipes but for all technologies.
No more forgetting to enable that recipe on migration scripts!

[bobingabout]

so that's what it is.

[nagapito]

According to Rsending, it also re-applies bonuses, like gun damage and sorts.

Maybe it also disabled recipes that should not be enabled when moved to another place of the tech tree.... dunno

[HOSH]

Not to add fuel to the discussion, but do gases still flow better in larger pipes? Or are they at the same rate as liquids in 0.15?

I found the easy test to see the fluid flow by pipe size is to take a segment of 2-3 off-shore pump -> different pipe sizes at X+ length -> same number of barreling (may be too fast now) or very high usage factory buildings. This way you can see how far the liquid gets and stays until different length + size of pipe lines. I have done this every major version changes to gauge how flow changes.

[bobingabout]

Gasses have flown the same as water for quite some time now.

Tungstic acid, crude oil and heavy oil (maybe more, I forgot) flow as thick fluids, but other than that... same as water.