[0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Some mods, made by Bob. Basically streaks every Factroio-area.

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by bobingabout » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:02 pm

MadClown01 wrote:
bobingabout wrote: Actually, better idea. Instead of tin plate, why don't I make it cost something, like, rubber?
Wait, you can't do rubber because you require an assembling machine to make resin, which means you need science pack 1.

How about wood then?
Rubber is a good idea imho.

I suggest implement a basic low-yield recipe for smelting wood into resin.
Better solution. a Tier 0 slow burner assembling machine, that can only accept 1 input item. There's not much you'd be able to make it in, gears, stone furnace, copper cables, but you'd be able to process wood into resin.
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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by RocketManChronicles » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:21 pm

bobingabout wrote:
MadClown01 wrote:
bobingabout wrote: Actually, better idea. Instead of tin plate, why don't I make it cost something, like, rubber?
Wait, you can't do rubber because you require an assembling machine to make resin, which means you need science pack 1.

How about wood then?
Rubber is a good idea imho.

I suggest implement a basic low-yield recipe for smelting wood into resin.
Better solution. a Tier 0 slow burner assembling machine, that can only accept 1 input item. There's not much you'd be able to make it in, gears, stone furnace, copper cables, but you'd be able to process wood into resin.
I have AAI Industry (part of the AAI package) along with all of the AAI mods and this adds a burner factory in the game. It is basically a tier 0 building (available from the start) to start production. So, my game setup would easily get past the tin or rubber requirement. This building is VERY slow and generates a ton of pollution. It is a good idea Bob.

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by Termak » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:56 pm

+1 for the burner assember and rubber

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by steinio » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:13 pm

Damned Bob, stop converting your mods to a nightmare.

If i want to make useless intermediates like motors or rubber i install AAI Industries but as i don't want this i use your mods - so far.

Is this currently an ego-race to outperform Angel? That's not necessary.
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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by Zombiee » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:58 pm

For what it's worth, I like the tin plates needed for belts. Since changing the science pack to need T0 belts was already made, making the labs require the same instead of the yellow seems to go hand in hand. That also should solve any compatibility issues with Angel's. Even if you want to avoid hand feeding science enough to unlock the electric crushers you can still make a t0 belt system to make red science, assuming you have the ability to make a lab in the first place.

Regardless of whether you use Angel's, tin is an early game metal than I always have far more of than I ever can use. Having a sink for it seems nice.

The rubber bit makes a certain amount of sense, but I see balance issues with making wood part of the chain to make belts in the early game. Either you'd need to chop massive numbers of trees or build a substantial tree farm to feed belt production. Maybe it's in my head, tin is a flavor change while rubber would require new infrastructure and change is scary.

The t0 assembler I like least, it works well in AAI because you have so much more pre-electricity play. Burner labs and having belts, inserters and electricity all locked behind tech make the t0 burner assembler useful. Having a T0 assembler that would be used for virtually no time seems a complicated solution to a simple problem.

My 2 cents - worth exactly that with a 3 cent margin for error.

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by bobingabout » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:11 pm

steinio wrote:Damned Bob, stop converting your mods to a nightmare.

If i want to make useless intermediates like motors or rubber i install AAI Industries but as i don't want this i use your mods - so far.

Is this currently an ego-race to outperform Angel? That's not necessary.
Rubber already exists, you just can't craft it without an assembler or furnace, and therefore it's not Tier 0 tech.
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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by supercirno » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 pm

Not changing belt speeds make sense, but please give Trainwreck heads up before changing yellow to require rubber as it is mid-tech in seablock. It's late in green science but really should count as blue as it requires somewhat elaborate petrochem setup (urea+formaldehyde exists but that won't scale) and is (currently) only used for buildings that require blue science. Forcing grey belts until blue science might be a bit too much..

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by Light » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:27 pm

I will hard protest the idea of rubber exactly for the same reasons I did so with Angel having increased wood to resin requirements which was reverted just as quickly after the upset.

Not everyone spawns in an area with an abundant source of trees or uses a greenhouse mod.

By having rubber as a primary ingredient this pushes the player to either regenerate a map until a good source of wood appears, or be forced into using a mod they may not care much for. While some are saying "I can install X if I want X" that's rightfully their choice, but a rubber requirement makes a greenhouse mod mandatory and forced decisions aren't something people are fond of.

From the experience when Angel increased the raw wood into resin recipe to 5:1, it ate entire forests once circuit board production started up and without forest regeneration or a greenhouse that meant running around the map risking death by biters just to get a necessity. Resin for boards is still consuming of wood but at a slower rate that it's tolerable even when starting areas are bare and no greenhouses are available, but if belts also require rubber then we're going to have that exact same problem all over again.

Also, tin from Angels is being remedied so that problem is eliminated. Tin is one thing I do find a fitting choice given it's easy access early on and is ever abundant in all starting areas unlike wood.

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by Northgate » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:41 pm

supercirno wrote:Not changing belt speeds make sense, but please give Trainwreck heads up before changing yellow to require rubber as it is mid-tech in seablock. It's late in green science but really should count as blue as it requires somewhat elaborate petrochem setup (urea+formaldehyde exists but that won't scale) and is (currently) only used for buildings that require blue science. Forcing grey belts until blue science might be a bit too much..
The recipe you're talking about is an alternative recipe. You should be able to just smelt resin if I remember correctly.

I like both the tin and the rubber idea and wouldn't mine a combination of both. I usually prefer variety over mass of one item type. But I generally think changes to your modpack should be made carefully because a lot of other maps are building upon it.
Last edited by Northgate on Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by jodokus31 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:42 pm

bobingabout wrote: Bobonium isn't a bob ore, it's... angels?

I think the fix is to make the lab cost a basic belt instead of yellow.

Lets not forget that in the real world, People were using copper, tin, and bronze long before they started using iron, because it's that easy to smelt. Iron requires a hotter furnace
Bob's mods reflects that by making tin one of those "it's in the starting area, mine it, stuff it in a furnace, and get a plate" materials for a reason. it is not walled behind any science. Bronze is, but tin itself isn't.

Sometimes I forget that other mods do things differently when it comes to these starting materials.

The main reason why tin is used instead of iron is "Because it's lowtech and cheap". And by lowtech, I mean notech, research level zero, you start with it.


Actually, better idea. Instead of tin plate, why don't I make it cost something, like, rubber?
Wait, you can't do rubber because you require an assembling machine to make resin, which means you need science pack 1.

How about wood then?
I also think, that the best fix would be changing lab to require grey belts. Then the options are wider.

Maybe, bronze instead of tin. Bronze has so less use atm.

Rubber would be more logical, but as already stated, there are so much more problems connected with the use of rubber, because Angels rubber is relatively late tech.
Maybe include rubber later?
Northgate wrote:
supercirno wrote:Not changing belt speeds make sense, but please give Trainwreck heads up before changing yellow to require rubber as it is mid-tech in seablock. It's late in green science but really should count as blue as it requires somewhat elaborate petrochem setup (urea+formaldehyde exists but that won't scale) and is (currently) only used for buildings that require blue science. Forcing grey belts until blue science might be a bit too much..
The recipe you're talking about is an alternative recipe. You should be able to just smelt resin if I remember correctly.
Resin is quite problematic to get in seablock and its one of the earlier great challenges of it. (There is no alternative, you must use this urea+formaldehyde recipe):)

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by thatguyagain » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:57 pm

First of all, I just wanted to say thanks Bob for all the hard work you put in on these mods. I can't imagine playing the game without them and the depth they add. Since there seems to be quite a lot going on right now I figured I'd add my 2c.

I've been with you for all the changes so far, I use the inserter rework and was a little sad to see the huge negative reaction to these recent changes as I feel they balance things nicely. I may be in the minority though as I use things like AAI, the py suite, omni, spacex and SCT so I really enjoy challenging long term playthroughs. Before the most recent change of yellow belts to require tin my only complaint was similar to others in that it was a bit pricey for iron. I liked the suggestion that was made to simply return to 2 belts per craft as I feel that would have solved the issue. When you changed them to require tin my initial reaction was shock, but upon thinking it over I believe that it makes quite a bit of sense. As you said tin is historically a metal that would have been used before iron and at least when I play I tend to have excess tin for quite some time. I agree with the suggestion to change the lab recipe to require basic belts instead of yellow, it feels necessary from a gameplay perspective. I understand that change is scary but I think sometimes it helps for us to take a step back and remember that these are mods for the vanilla game and as such vanilla recipes and attributes may very likely be changed. I wonder how some of the folks here would react if you rolled out your electronics changes these days! :lol:

As for the early belts I personally love them especially with AAI included. I've always wanted the burner phase to be extended, there's something nice about finally being able to automate things properly after a little bit of effort early game. Another modder, Reika, has a mod called Rubber Belts which gives either a replacement of alternative recipe for yellow belts that uses rubber instead of iron plates and a grey belt similar to yours that uses wooden gears and rubber. I added it because it sounded great on paper, however after having it in my set of mods for a while I can say the wood cost was much too extreme for early game. I tend to set trees to spawn rarely to save FPS and the headache of clearing them out and having to get to greenhouse tech before being able to automate circuits is already a struggle in itself. Perhaps a crazy idea would be to use lead? It's a fairly soft metal which was used as far back as ancient Rome at least and could give an explanation to why the belts are half the speed of their lightweight tin counterparts. Another option would be copper since early game that tends to build up in a warehouse for most mod configurations I've played. If you choose to go the wood route perhaps you could just do 1 wood gear + 1 wood board per belt?

Whatever you decide to do, thank you for putting all of this time and energy into making these mods and I look forward to playing them as they continue to grow.

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by supercirno » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:11 pm

Northgate wrote:
supercirno wrote:Not changing belt speeds make sense, but please give Trainwreck heads up before changing yellow to require rubber as it is mid-tech in seablock. It's late in green science but really should count as blue as it requires somewhat elaborate petrochem setup (urea+formaldehyde exists but that won't scale) and is (currently) only used for buildings that require blue science. Forcing grey belts until blue science might be a bit too much..
The recipe you're talking about is an alternative recipe. You should be able to just smelt resin if I remember correctly.

I like both the tin and the rubber idea and wouldn't mine a combination of both. I usually prefer variety over mass of one item type. But I generally think changes to your modpack should be made carefully because a lot of other maps are building upon it.
Seablock has no raw wood at all. The only options are styrene + butadiene directly into rubber or from the liquid resin chain (urea + formaldehyde being the only one pre-blue). That said, I don't see why not add both recipes. Seablock can then just disable the rubber one.

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by Northgate » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:41 pm

supercirno wrote: Seablock has no raw wood at all. The only options are styrene + butadiene directly into rubber or from the liquid resin chain (urea + formaldehyde being the only one pre-blue). That said, I don't see why not add both recipes. Seablock can then just disable the rubber one.
Honestly this is an issue of the sea block mod. That looks to me as if the creator of that mod just forgot about resin. I don't think it's acceptable to do either of those recipes just to get wires. That's just a basic thing you need quite often. At least I do.

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by bobingabout » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:49 pm

I'm skimming right now as I'm fixing bugs etc.
jodokus31 wrote:I also think, that the best fix would be changing lab to require grey belts. Then the options are wider.

Maybe, bronze instead of tin. Bronze has so less use atm.
Going to keep the tin, not rubber, and from what I hear you should still be able to get tin from red science packs only, so it's not pushing too high up the chain.

And the red belts use bronze, if you're using all the latest versions, which is one reason why tin felt more natural for the yellow belts.


The fix I'm going for is to make lab cost basic belt instead of yellow.
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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by jodokus31 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:08 pm

Northgate wrote:
supercirno wrote: Seablock has no raw wood at all. The only options are styrene + butadiene directly into rubber or from the liquid resin chain (urea + formaldehyde being the only one pre-blue). That said, I don't see why not add both recipes. Seablock can then just disable the rubber one.
Honestly this is an issue of the sea block mod. That looks to me as if the creator of that mod just forgot about resin. I don't think it's acceptable to do either of those recipes just to get wires. That's just a basic thing you need quite often. At least I do.
In seablock, circuit wires are changed to use copper wire and electronic circuits.
Resin is needed first for the advanded circuits. So its reasonable and no problem
bobingabout wrote: And the red belts use bronze, if you're using all the latest versions, which is one reason why tin felt more natural for the yellow belts.

The fix I'm going for is to make lab cost basic belt instead of yellow.
Ah, ok, red belts are using bronze already :)

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by myricaulus » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:22 pm

Thank you for the heat shielding fix :mrgreen: you are awesome!

I am actually glad i went here and read about the belt recipe changes so i can start redesign my megabase before i run out of belts ;)

May i suggest to use the migration script to output some information in case a recipe has been changed? Maybe in an modal window that needs to be acknowledged? I know user documentation is usually not the favorite task, but would still reduce some frustration :ugeek:

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by DaveSh99 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:48 pm

A little off the current topic...

Does any one know if the recipe to produce seedlings for Bob's green house mod has changed? it seems to take longer than it used to. A pair of yellow assemblers can only produce enough seedlings to keep two greenhouses going.

Dave.

edited -- For spelling.

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by bobingabout » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:56 pm

DaveSh99 wrote:A little off the current topic...

Does any one know if the recipe to produce seedlings for Bob's green house mod has changed? it seems to take longer than it used to. A pair of yellow assemblers can only produce enough seedlings to keep two greenhouses going.

Dave.

edited -- For spelling.
I haven't changed it since.... it was either 0.15.0 or 0.16.0, I can't remember. nothing recent anyway.
Someone else might have changed things.


Anyway, update.

Logistics 0.16.14:
Lab now costs basic belt instead of yellow.
Removed "not-on-map" flag from train entities.
Added filter to storage chest
cleaned up logistics crafting tabs.
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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by myricaulus » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:55 pm

Well, sorry, its me again.. did you maybe forgot to add those new cobalt gears,balls and bearings to the productivity list?

Also i wonder, if it is indented that you now could craft blue belt in your inventory, because you don't need any lubricant for it? Well i mean you still need 4 different resource ores respective 6 different types of plates to craft them. Which is quite a challenge to design a production line for it without drones.

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Re: [0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

Post by MadClown01 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:49 pm

myricaulus wrote:Well, sorry, its me again.. did you maybe forgot to add those new cobalt gears,balls and bearings to the productivity list?

Also i wonder, if it is indented that you now could craft blue belt in your inventory, because you don't need any lubricant for it? Well i mean you still need 4 different resource ores respective 6 different types of plates to craft them. Which is quite a challenge to design a production line for it without drones.
You still need lube for the bearings

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