Solar sensor on the wiki page seems wrong to me

[DarkenDragon]

for those of you who dont know what im talking about, this is the page im referring to. https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... Production

the basic idea is to create a system to turn off the steam engines at night to allow the accumulators work and drain during the night.

though this idea seems very flawed to me especially watching arumba's videos and how much hes been struggling with it.

now one major flaw in the system is the idea that this is considered a solar sensor. its not. instead its really a sensor to see if the accumulators are being charged or not.

so let me explain how the system works, there is 2 main electrical networks, the main, and the sensor. in the main sensor, you'll have your steam engines and solar panels and your large stash of accumulators. in the sensor, you'll simply have 1 fast inserter (can be any inserter really, but this helps distinguish the 2) and a single accumulator that is within both networks. then there is the smart chest and belts that will have the wood (since wood is useless in most cases within the network)

so the way this work is that the regular inserter will constantly take the wood out of the chest. so while this inserter is on, the chest should be empty majority of the time since this inserter will be connected to the main network and there should always be power in the main network.

now the sensor network will have that 1 accumulator that is in both networks. during the day it'll start to charge up with all the other accumulators since there should be an abundance of energy being produced and it'll absorb any excess energy being produced, but at the same time the fast inserter will drain this energy constantly as well since that 1 accumulator will be the only power source for it. because of this, this accumulator will charge up slower than the others and when it comes to night time and there is no more solar energy, this is when the accumulators start to discharge to make up for the lack of energy. this also means that this 1 accumulator will discharge faster than the rest because not only is it proving power to the main grid, it also is providing power to the fast inserter as well. if you use lamps/lights in that sensor network, you can drain this power even quicker.

this means that this accumulator will drain much quicker (in reality you'd want it to be empty the moment the solar panels stop working) than the main network's accumulators, and thus it will stop the fast inserter from working, and thus leaving the smart chest empty of wood.

so recap, during the day when the accumulators are charging, the box will have wood cuz both inserters are working and cycling the wood around. during the night, when the accumulators are discharging, the box will have no wood because the fast inserter will not have any power to put the wood back into the box.

so thats how the sensor works and the way they tie it to the steam engines is that they use smart inserters to put coal into the burners, and they run a separate network (green or red your pick) to make them work when the wood in the chest is less than 1 (meaning work when it's empty) but since the chest is only empty during the night, this means that steam engines are only working at night. thus this contradicts the whole point of this system. but then again we can always invert the command so that to work when wood in the chest is greater than 0, thus work during the day.

but then theres a problem with both situations.
1. if you make the steam enegines work only during the day, then this whole system becomes pointless because the game already prioritizes the system to use solar energy first then steam engines, than accumulators. and during the day you'll most likely have more solar panels that you wont need the steam engines and they'll automatically shut off once they're not needed anymore. thus this sensor becomes pointless and a whole lot of wasted time. also this means that the steam engines wont work during the night, and if there is not enough power in the accumulators for the entire night, then that means you'll have absolutely no power at all then. which is terrible (such as if you have laser turrets and you get attack at night and they drain your accumulators)

2. if you make the steam engines work at night only to make up for the lack of solar power, then your relying on your solar panels to power your entire system AND charge your accumulators during the day, and at night your running the steam engines and your accumulator's are only discharging at the rate to make up for what ever your steam engines cant handle, but in reality you created this system to do the opposite.

so in reality, this system is very flawed to me. unless someone can explain to me how it truly supposed to work. though this does teach us how we can have multiple energy network grids, and how we can put it to use.

in my opinion, the way this should work should have these conditions. steam engines work if accumulators are empty, and it is night. (assuming you have enough solar panels for the day)

now we know how to test for accumulator's are empty, and we know how to test for night (this one can be a lot easier by just having the same sensor set up except just use a single solar panel within the sensor grid instead of an accumulator) but this would mean that you will need a whole seperate network grid for the burner's and inserters that is not connected to the main network. the reason for this is because if the accumulators are dry, and we have the test proper for it. this would also mean that the inserters once turned on, will have no power for it to work. so this means that the inserters will need a seperate power source from the main net work, which can come from it's own set of accumulators that will power only the inserters. though this also means that it'll need it's own method of charging up as well, either having it's own steam engine, or having it's own solar panels that will only charge them up.

I have an idea of how it'll work, though i'll need to wait till I get home to test it out.

TL:DR - we need a new method to turn off steam engines when they are not needed in order to reduce pollution!

[ssilk]

In short: This is already planned. See roadmap about "circuits".

In long:
- On the mentioned page are many tips. I think, you mean especially this https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... ailable.3F
- The construction measures the left energy in the accumulators. I don't know, why you say it differently, that is just not mentioned!
- The steam engines are not working only at night, they work, when energy is needed but they have a lower priority then the solar cells.
. But they work also, if the accumulators full. The idea is: Accumulators should empty at last, they are reserve-energy.
- The whole system is meant to work in a limited range of situations. Not all! For example: It falls into that deep hole you describe, if the power drains too fast. But this can be calibrated by placing more lamps into this second network.
- this thing was invented last summer, when a number of players cried for the old behavior of the steam engines: Till then the steam engines had the lowest priority and run only, when there wa no power from solar AND all accus where empty. This changed (I think with v0.5?) and the current priorities where introduced.
- The discussion was at a point, where the devs felt, that something needs to be introduced. This "hack" (it is nothing else than a hack) helped to delay this. The point here is: If the devs need to develop something to keep the game playable, they cannot develop new stuff. This hack keep the game playable.
- Even if you do not understand, how it works, then there is no reason to think it doesn't.
- When you look around, how things work in reality, you will find, that many stuff around us work with that kind of quirked logic. Think for example to the battery of a car and that the starter is powered with this battery. No reason to think that it needs to be changed, cause it just works in it's defined situations very well.

And finally: Your post should be in the help-board: "Please help me to understand, how this works". I'm not willing to explain the mechanics of this construction in the suggestions board.

[Kazuar]

And finally: Your post should be in the help-board: "Please help me to understand, how this works". I'm not willing to explain the mechanics of this construction in the suggestions board.

But... this topic is in general discussions? Or was it just moved?

[DarkenDragon]

no its always been in general discussion

and my point was that it doesnt do what it indicates, which is to turn off steam engines at night. the title is misleading.

but I also wanted to highlight how this contraption does do something different that only thinking outside of the box can do.

I wanted to see what else can people make with this idea in order to improve the community and what else we can come up with, and if maybe we can actually come up with a method of actually doing what this subject was meant for as well. to actually create a system to make steam engines the lowest priority when your able to handle it.

and I know exactly how the system works, but their explanation doesn't do what they indicate.

[Kazuar]

[edit: I'm sorry if my post comes off as rude; it's not my intention. English isn't my native language, and I've been informed that my texts tend to lack tactfulness. Again, I'm sorry for that.]

[...]my point was that it doesnt do what it indicates, which is to turn off steam engines at night. the title is misleading.[...]

The exact title is: "How to switch off steam engines in the night, when enough accumulator capacity is available?"
The title (almost)perfecly describes the working of the mechanism; the only possible inaccuracy within it is probably owed to a slight mistranslation between german and english; I'd have choosen"[...] if enough accumulator capacity[...]", although I wouldn't consider it a noteworthy flaw to begin with.

Of course, the mechanism only makes sense if:
a) Your daytime power generation from solar panels meets your factory's demand AND
b) allows for storing enough energy to meet the factory's nighttime demand mostly AND
c) your accumulator capacity allows for the storing of the aforementioned energy surplus.

I get the feeling that you're making your judgement mostly, if not completly, based on arumbas let's play series. Just for the record, as of his episode #35, he has yet to meet conditions a) and b), which makes it difficult to judge on whether or not he has met condition c). His electric demand also exceeding what his steam engines can produce doesn't make it easier for him (which he is going to fix/might have already fixed with his spamming of effectivity modules), and neither does the lack of information regarding the composition of the day/night-cycle both within the game and within the wiki, the latter being an accurate criticism about the wiki, unlike his "the wiki got it backwards" comment.

Getting the copy of the system actually right wouldn't hurt, either

but I also wanted to highlight how this contraption does do something different that only thinking outside of the box can do.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here, I'm afraid. I'm Sorry for that. Are you making a summary type statement of your opinion, or are you highlighting an inquiry about different uses of this mechanism?

I wanted to see what else can people make with this idea in order to improve the community and what else we can come up with[...]

Again, are you looking for new solutions to the same problem, or for new problems with the same solution?

[...]and if maybe we can actually come up with a method of actually doing what this subject was meant for as well. to actually create a system to make steam engines the lowest priority when your able to handle it.

and I know exactly how the system works, but their explanation doesn't do what they indicate.

What? How about you quote the part of the wiki which you think is faulty? Because I'm very sure the system works exactly as intended and documented.
Again, arumbas system doesn't work because apparently, to copy someting from a picture right next on the screen is difficult (though honestly, the specific picture could be made far easier to unserstand)
(and, just on the off chance the often mentioned let's player reads this: you made this bed for yourself, arumba, during the megastream, with your shout-out to the negative nannies of your other series)

[GewaltSam]

so the way this work is that the regular inserter will constantly take the wood out of the chest. so while this inserter is on, the chest should be empty majority of the time since this inserter will be connected to the main network and there should always be power in the main network.

I still need to read through your whole post, but here's the (first) mistake: it's the other way around. The chest needs to have wood inside, else the steam engines start running. As long as there's wood in the chest, the steam engines are offline by design. That's why you use a slow inserter to unload wood out of the box; the blue one grabs it quickly to get it into the chest, the yellow one puts it out again. No matter what happens, the yellow inserter always puts wood out of the box as long as there is any kind of power (because it's connected to the main network). But the blue inserter only works as long as there is accumulator power. If there isn't anymore, blue will stop inserting wood, the chest will be empty after a short time and the boiler inserters start to work (because they get told by the circuit network: start to work if there's no wood in this chest).

I built this system in my second pretty big factory now, and it works like a charm. The steam engines are ALWAYS off, because I have enough solar and accumulators to power through the night (and, in consequence, there's always wood in the chest). They would activate as soon as either the solar power doesn't suffice to power my factory at day or the accumulators run out of power for some reason.

Trust me, it works exactly like that. There's just one little flaw: if the boilers got fuel at some point, they will burn it as soon as night starts. But they will go offline again after all fuel is used (because the inserters are not working), if your factory has enough power from solar and accumulators.

It's not really a "solar sensor"; it's a contraption that's useful if you wanna use steam only as backup, and for that, it's doing its job perfectly. And if i understood you right, that's exactly what you want. I think you made a mistake while building the thing, maybe with the circuit logic. I'll take a look at arumbas video (I watch them in the background from time to time, but haven't gotten to the point where he tries to set that up). If you could send me a link to the video in question or tell me in which part he tries it, that would simplify things

Oh, by the way and before it comes up again: this system isn't intuitive at all, and most (me included) won't be able to figure that out completely by themselves. A nice circuit logic for that is coming for sure, and until then, at least this system works.

EDIT: Read through your whole post now. Your main misconception is that the chest gets emptied out of wood at some point; but that should only be the case if your accumulators run dry. If all works fine and you have enough accumulators and solar panels, the box never ever gets empty (i.e. there is always wood in the box).


============

Maybe the following helps in some way. Please notice that I just did it to clarify some things, not to explain the whole thing from ground.

pic

The substation is needed to put the accumulator and the blue inserter into one separate power network. It shouldn't be possible to build this contraption without a substation as far as i know.
The accu is inside the range of the substation and connected with a pole to the main network as well. Be careful that the substation is NOT connected to the main network (shift+left click releases all wire connections to or from a pole or substation).

Next, notice the red wire connection with the smart chest where the wood is in. It is connected to EVERY inserter into my boilers. The setup for every inserter is the same, i screnshotted that, too:

pic

[ssilk]

no its always been in general discussion

Hm. My fault. It's sometimes difficult to work in a forum on an ipad.

and my point was that it doesnt do what it indicates, which is to turn off steam engines at night. the title is misleading

Hm. Ok, Now I think I understand. Well, the title was a pointer to a somehow similar question in the forum.

I wanted to see what else can people make with this idea in order to improve the community and what else we can come up with, and if maybe we can actually come up with a method of actually doing what this subject was meant for as well. to actually create a system to make steam engines the lowest priority when your able to handle it.

Hum. I think I've problems to understand this sentence correctly. This might have been also the case in the first post.

and I know exactly how the system works, but their explanation doesn't do what they indicate.

Well, it's a Wiki. Change it. you can do what you want. If the others feel it's good, it will be accepted.

When I knew, how long this provisional thing now lives, I've explained it step by step, first step would be this construction of smart chest and slow/fast inserters and what happens, when I turn off the power for one inserter by cutting one pole. The next step is simulating this by replacing the power for the second inserter by power from one solar cell. The next step should be with some explanation how accus work, when connected to two networks. And then the rest.

@GewaltSam: there are two possible setups: one with the chest that fills up, and one with the chest is emptied. Depends on where the accu-network-powered inserter is placed. Both have their usage cases, but I admit, when I built it I always mix it. I just change the logic to fit the function.