Should wiki contain detailed info about mods?

[ssilk]

I need a bit time to really understand how namespaces work here, but haven't yet. :/

But from other wikis I think it works like so, that every mod should have its own namespace. For example for dytechs mod, the page about inserters should be named so:

mod_dytech:inserter

"mod" as prefix, because "dytech" alone is not is in this case not enough distincted. I think inside of a "mod_dytech" page it doesn't need namespaces; only when you want to change back, but I don't know how that works.

[n9103]

That would be more appropriate to be in a sub-page, rather than a main page within a namespace.

Dytech_mod/Inserter
vs
Dytech_mod:Inserter

Kind of a small point, yes, but it's less of an organizational hassle to deal with pages and sub-pages than entire namespaces.
The DF wiki was hell to deal with when DF went 3D, and the best option was to make a new namespace for the new version, because there were so many drastic changes to the way the game played. It worked out, but took months to transfer, fact check, and format all the content to the new version. And there were several times more people using and editing the wiki there than here.

Being that the most drastic change in a mod would either change the entire name of the mod, or would amount to new versions of a dozen sub-pages, a namespace for each mod is overkill.

Further, it's easier and faster to link to a sub or sibling-page within a set of pages, than it is to link to other namespaces.
If you're looking to group all of a mod's pages together, and sub-pages aren't going to cut it (for some reason?) then I would recommend setting up a sub-category for that particular mod.

[ssilk]

Uh.. Subpages, that was new for me...
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Subpages

Edit: I know why, because it must be turned on before!

And this is like it is now:
https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... _made_mods
Everyone is invited to make it better.

[n9103]

I'd pitch in, but my in-depth Wiki-Fu is very rusty, and I'm not overly interested in de-rusting it at this point, sorry.

However some advice:
You mention making two tables, but tables are sortable. Just make the class "wikitable sortable" instead of "wikitable". Not sure how well it works on other table classes.
Traditional wikipedia-like format would be Name_of_mod_(mod) for page names. But nothing particularly wrong in deviating, as long as everyone follows suit.
Another break from tradition that I saw was that your pages used casual capitalization. Traditional format is First letter capped, everything else lowercase, (except in Proper Nouns.)
I did add a sub-paging example to the Mod_DyTech page.

[ssilk]

Well, because I couldn't sleep, I changed a lot stuff tonight and now I think I understand the subpages. I made an example.

But I'm not finished yet.

Currently it looks like so

User_made_mods
Mod_DyTech
Mod_DyTech/Inserter
Mod_F-mod
Mod_F-mod/blaaa
...

I think the end-structure should look like so:

Mods:main page
Mods:DyTech
Mods:DyTech/Inserter
...

Etc. so we're using namespaces for everything about mods and subpages for the mods-contents. The reason is, that the mods should be enabled to be completely separated from the rest (see vote), and the namespacing makes this a lot easier.

@Kovarex: is it possible to turn on subpages? Docu says it must be turned on. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Subpages

[ssilk]

Today I should have time to do some things there (besides playing the new version, thanks to the devs ). But I'm still unsure what the best way is. At beginning I thought its clear, but now the more I'm reading, the more I'm unsure.

I think my uncertainty about that is very good explained in this article:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/w ... wiki/95352

The possibilities are about this mediawiki elements:
- namespaces
- subpages
- categories

And the good thing is, it explains a also a solution. I will explain it with own words, so that you don't have to read all.

Namespaces
any page belongs to exactly one namespace (1 or more). Namespaces are "flat": all namespaces are conceptually on the same "level", but divide up different focuses. They should be used to bring pages together, which have common content characteristics.
The best example would be to put all entities or items into a namespace, like [[Entity:Inserter]] or [[Item:Electric Circuit]]. The links can be displayed without namespace, using the pipe trick: [[Entity:Inserter|]]. The idea is, that every Item-page can be assured to have the number of needed resources, the time to craft, and so on on it.
The idea I had to use both (namespaces AND subpages, like [[mods:modname/inserter]]) is watched in this light not so useful, because the subpages of mods might have no common content characteristics. Only the mod-description has the characteristics to have a description block about the mod. But the subpages could be more like an Item-page.

Subpages
any page can be a subpage of 0 or 1 other pages. Subpages form a natural hierarchy.
Well, the ideal use for that would be the XXX-network-pages. Like
[[Electric network]]
[[electric network/calculation of power consumption during night]]
But this is not the best case, because watched in a different light, the Electric network forms more than one hierarchy.
But for the mods they are very usefull, because a page belongs to a mod or not (0 or 1 hierarchy).
But again: I think mixing namespaces and subpages will cause problems, because they are naturally not thought for that.

Categories
any page can belong to 0 or more categories. Categories can form a hierarchy.
The electric-network example from above is an ideal candidate for a hierarchy, because for example the steam engine belongs to electric network AND pipe network.
We can put all pages, which are about inserters into one hierarchy.

Or anything about a mod... which is a very good idea.



So I would make it now like so:

We need to have all module descriptions at one place (or space) and talking about space shows exactly, that this should be done using namespaces, because all modules should have a more or less systematic content to describe them.

The documentation of the mod itself is free of such needs but belongs to one mod only. So I think to make it more or less how Dyson already begun is useful. They form a natural hierarchy.

And categories can be used to form a category about both: the mod-description in its namespace and the documentation of the mod.


I ask me now, why I always need to write such long postings to explain the status quo...

But I want to make sure, that everyone knows, why the things are done, as they are. And to be sure, that the chosen decisions are the best at that time. So if anybody has a better idea, please tell.

[rk84]

I would have use "Mod" (non plural. Like Template, Category, User...) for namespace name and leave the mod list in mainspace. Because:
1. The list is not a mod
2. I think, the list page could show up in default search. (assuming there will be real Mod namespace)

[ssilk]

I would have use "Mod" (non plural. Like Template, Category, User...) for namespace name and leave the mod list in mainspace. Because:
1. The list is not a mod

To point 1: Ok, I change it, the list is not a mod-description and doesn't belong to this namespace.

2. I think, the list page could show up in default search. (assuming there will be real Mod namespace)

Do you mean, that the mod-list should be shown first when searched, or ...?

Current structure I have in mind:

Code: Select all

list of mods -> mods:module ("standardized" module-description) -> module (docu or whatever) -> module/subpage

[rk84]

Example to point 2. There is page called Template:Icon. If you make search with word "icon". It does not show that page, because it is not in mainspace.

edit: why you discard the namespace in your structure? I though the point to use namespace was to separate mods content from main content.
Is this possible?

Code: Select all

list of mods -> mod:module -> mod:module/subpa

[ssilk]

Now, when I read exactly how namespaces work, I realize, that using a namespace isn't that easy. The wiki must be configured first to know this namespace. Or in other words: namespaces aren't that useful for that stuff...
Shame on me.
Well, luckily I hadn't that much time as hoped.

My new thought about structure:

Code: Select all

List of mods -> mod_module (description) -> module -> module/subpages

Assumed, that the subpages are turned on...

[n9103]

Sub pages don't *have* to be turned on to make the content. It just makes managing and linking quicker.
I already made you one example earlier.

[ssilk]

Thanks, I found that out now, too.

And that brings me to the idea, to put everything under a mod-subpage

Code: Select all

mod                       -> currently "user_made_mods", the list of mods
mod/ExampleMod            -> "standardized" description
mod/ExampleMod/docs
mod/ExampleMod/Inserter 
mod/ExampleMod/whatever   -> mod-pages

Which is in my eyes the most logical of all the ideas I had. And not more complicated than the others.
Any (better) ideas? Then I think will do it so.

[Dysoch]

I want to know what the layout will be, as tomorrow i want to start working on the wiki, adding at least all items and recipes.

Btw, anyway multiupload can be enabled? Makes uploading around 40 icons alot easier

[ssilk]

I want to know what the layout will be, as tomorrow i want to start working on the wiki, adding at least all items and recipes.

Sorry for the hassle; in my company we use another wiki (confluence) and I thought most stuff can be translated 1:1, subpages in mediawiki is a sub folder in confluence and so on. But indeed they are very different things and my fail was not to read the docs completely. Then some personal problems came between and so on... But that's normal daily business and off topic.

I would like to keep that so. I had this evening some minutes time to plan and looked into the details and it should work like so.

Btw, anyway multiupload can be enabled? Makes uploading around 40 icons alot easier

As I understood it, that is an extension and must be installed first. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MultiUpload

Must be installed by an admin...

[Darthlawsuit]

Why not? There are many games that would be dead without their large modding fanbase. More mods the better this game will fare in the long run. Keeping them in one spot makes it easier for newcomers to get those mods or info on them.

[rk84]

I made template called "sublinks" that can take the page title and chops it to subpage links. Its my first
and I took it as testing. I'm not asking it to be used. Especially if the subpages are turned on.

My sandbox

[slpwnd]

Nice to see you guys taking the initiative in organizing the information about the mods in a better way. Keep it up;)

[ssilk]

@slpwnd: thanks, I'm also glad how good this works, because I currently only have time at lunch or late in the evening/night.

@rk84: like. I learn here more about mediawiki than the last 4 years, we tried to use it at work and then switched to Confluence (because of Jira, not because we where unable to use it)

And to all modders: I think currently the module-pages are in a state, where the Example mod can be used.