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Fish per Minute
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:35 pm
by ptx0
What is it?
A new metric of tracking base size. in a departure from Science per Minute - but also, an extension of.
How?
Inserters will grab fish from shorelines.
Launching 1 space science pack returns 1 fish.
Launching 1000 space science pack returns 100 fish due to stack size limitations.
If you can design a contraption to launch only 100 space science packs and return 100 fish, scale it up and see how many Fish per Minute one can do.
I will work on my design and eventually contribute it here, but I look forward to whatever you all come up with.
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm
by Xorimuth
ptx0 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:35 pm
Launching 1000 space science pack returns 100 fish due to stack size limitations.
If you can design a contraption to launch only 100 space science packs and return 100 fish, scale it up and see how many Fish per Minute one can do.
Unfortunately it is impossible to automatically insert more than 12 fish (one stack inserter's-worth). As soon as the 12 fish are inserted, the rocket launch starts and no more can be inserted. You can, of course, insert 100 by hand and receive 100 fish.
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:31 am
by ptx0
Xorimuth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm
ptx0 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:35 pm
Launching 1000 space science pack returns 100 fish due to stack size limitations.
If you can design a contraption to launch only 100 space science packs and return 100 fish, scale it up and see how many Fish per Minute one can do.
Unfortunately it is impossible to automatically insert more than 12 fish (one stack inserter's-worth). As soon as the 12 fish are inserted, the rocket launch starts and no more can be inserted. You can, of course, insert 100 by hand and receive 100 fish.
on my modded map, my inserters have a hand stack size of 147. so it'll happily insert 100 into the silo.
but i think you misunderstood - the idea is to move space science flasks into the silo, and you get fish in return. have you tried using a lot of inserters primed with packs to swing all at once?
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:46 am
by Xorimuth
ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:31 am
Xorimuth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm
ptx0 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:35 pm
Launching 1000 space science pack returns 100 fish due to stack size limitations.
If you can design a contraption to launch only 100 space science packs and return 100 fish, scale it up and see how many Fish per Minute one can do.
Unfortunately it is impossible to automatically insert more than 12 fish (one stack inserter's-worth). As soon as the 12 fish are inserted, the rocket launch starts and no more can be inserted. You can, of course, insert 100 by hand and receive 100 fish.
on my modded map, my inserters have a hand stack size of 147. so it'll happily insert 100 into the silo.
but i think you misunderstood - the idea is to move space science flasks into the silo, and you get fish in return. have you tried using a lot of inserters primed with packs to swing all at once?
Yes sorry, I mixed up fish and space science in my reply. The point still stands, and even if the space science packs are inserted on the same tick, it doesn’t help.
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:13 am
by ptx0
Xorimuth wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:46 am
Yes sorry, I mixed up fish and space science in my reply. The point still stands, and even if the space science packs are inserted on the same tick, it doesn’t help.
alright, well i guess you aren't so creative then
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:56 am
by Durentis
Xorimuth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm
Unfortunately it is impossible to automatically insert more than 12 fish (one stack inserter's-worth). As soon as the 12 fish are inserted, the rocket launch starts and no more can be inserted. You can, of course, insert 100 by hand and receive 100 fish.
Put 100 science packs in a box, cut power to the rocket if the box has less than 100 packs (inserter in mid-swing) and restore power an inserter-swing after the box has zero? Been forever since I studied latches, but.. that? Seems doable and probably a bit easier than displaying a music video on the map..
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:05 am
by ptx0
Durentis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:56 am
Xorimuth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm
Unfortunately it is impossible to automatically insert more than 12 fish (one stack inserter's-worth). As soon as the 12 fish are inserted, the rocket launch starts and no more can be inserted. You can, of course, insert 100 by hand and receive 100 fish.
Put 100 science packs in a box, cut power to the rocket if the box has less than 100 packs (inserter in mid-swing) and restore power an inserter-swing after the box has zero? Been forever since I studied latches, but.. that? Seems doable and probably a bit easier than displaying a music video on the map..
i like it. i did this in space exploration.
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:40 am
by Silari
Durentis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:56 am
Xorimuth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm
Unfortunately it is impossible to automatically insert more than 12 fish (one stack inserter's-worth). As soon as the 12 fish are inserted, the rocket launch starts and no more can be inserted. You can, of course, insert 100 by hand and receive 100 fish.
Put 100 science packs in a box, cut power to the rocket if the box has less than 100 packs (inserter in mid-swing) and restore power an inserter-swing after the box has zero? Been forever since I studied latches, but.. that? Seems doable and probably a bit easier than displaying a music video on the map..
I was hoping that would work, but trying it out in game it seems that even without power, once anything inserts something into a rocket silo with 'auto-launch with cargo' enabled it'll still immediately enter the 'Launched' state and you can't insert anything else into it. It won't actually start the launch until it gets power back, but you still can't insert anything into it.
Stack size of 100 seems the only way to automate it.
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:25 pm
by ptx0
Silari wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:40 am
Stack size of 100 seems the only way to automate it.
no, stack size of 100 is just the most efficient way.
it's possibly a bug in the game that it goes into Launched state without power.
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:35 pm
by Nosferatu
It's a "minor issue"
viewtopic.php?p=525630#p525630
Yes that report is not talking about going to launch while having no power but I bet the answer will be the same
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:34 pm
by Trific
What if you have more than one inserter? 10 stack inserters set to a stack size of 10?
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:13 pm
by ptx0
Trific wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:34 pm
What if you have more than one inserter? 10 stack inserters set to a stack size of 10?
see the issue linked just above your post
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:13 pm
by ptx0
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 8:59 pm
by Plawerth
M3wM3w / Mewmew Comfy Factorio has a way around this. Turn off autolaunch in the game GUI but have a separate scenario/softmod GUI control to trigger launch at 100 fish.
https://github.com/M3wM3w/ComfyFactorio ... to_win.lua
Scroll down to lines 246-286
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 8:00 am
by Qon
ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:13 am
alright, well i guess you aren't so creative then
Do you have a creative solution
that works or are you also uncreative?
Using a mod is not a creative solution!
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 4:59 pm
by ptx0
Qon wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:00 am
Using a mod is not a creative solution!
that's your opinion. it's frustrating when others think they can decide what's worthy or not. just leave, and don't come back
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 9:25 pm
by Qon
ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:59 pm
that's your opinion. it's frustrating when others think they can decide what's worthy or not. just leave, and don't come back
Being frustrated doesn't make you right. Working within the limitations to find creative tricks like timing several inserters and powering off the silo didn't work, but those are honest attempts at creative problem solving. Installing a mod that just "patches" the bug with an obvious workaround is as creative as waiting for the Factorio update that fixes the bug and saying that you employed creative problem solving. We all already know that the stack size is what limits us and that it is fixable with a mod. So the discussion is about how to solve it in vanilla Factorio.
Modding the game is not thinking outside the box here, you just gave up on the game and decided to play another game. It's cheating, because people are trying to figure out how to solve the issue without resorting to mods and you say that they are not creative enough even though you didn't even attempt to solve the same problem.
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 10:00 pm
by ptx0
Qon wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:25 pm
So the discussion is about how to solve it in vanilla Factorio.
i started the discussion, remember?
it's about fish per minute as a measure of base size. and if you want to limit yourself to the vanilla silo mechanics, cool.
i should clarify, i don't care about this silly limit of the silo. my FPM measurement is under the assumption that you've gotten clever with lua scripting and worked around the problem somehow. describe how, even. there's more than one way to do it. get creative. please stop gatekeeping my thread.
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 7:58 am
by Qon
Ok if you want me to come up with creative solutions, and allow mods, what are the limits?
The whole point of having a fish/minute is to be able to compare bases, yes? If someone is playing vanilla and says 10 FPM then maybe that is decent.
If someone else then says 100 then that is a bigger number so way more impressive, right? But if the second guy is using a mod that makes the game 100x easier then there's no comparison.
Modding inserters to work around the bug and having the rest of the base vanilla makes sense, but just that still gives you almost 10x more FPM then vanilla so it's a massive advantage that needs to be disclosed.
If you use creative mod super modules or infinity chests then you can get to many orders of magnitude higher FPM than what is possible in vanilla, with no effort in a few minutes.
If I write a command that carpets the entire surface of Nauvis with chests full of fish, am I the best player? Is it fair? Should I have to tell you what cheats I used to get to my number or should I just post my FPM and tell others to be more creative?
So again, before I try to win this FPM race I want to know the rules so you can't later say that I cheated.
Re: Fish per Minute
Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 12:12 am
by ptx0
Qon wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 7:58 am
Ok if you want me to come up with creative solutions, and allow mods, what are the limits?
The whole point of having a fish/minute is to be able to compare bases, yes? If someone is playing vanilla and says 10 FPM then maybe that is decent.
If someone else then says 100 then that is a bigger number so way more impressive, right? But if the second guy is using a mod that makes the game 100x easier then there's no comparison.
Modding inserters to work around the bug and having the rest of the base vanilla makes sense, but just that still gives you almost 10x more FPM then vanilla so it's a massive advantage that needs to be disclosed.
If you use creative mod super modules or infinity chests then you can get to
many orders of magnitude higher FPM than what is possible in vanilla, with no effort in a few minutes.
If I write a command that carpets the entire surface of Nauvis with chests full of fish, am I the best player? Is it fair? Should I have to tell you what cheats I used to get to my number or should I just post my FPM and tell others to be more creative?
So again, before I try to win this FPM race I want to know the rules so you can't later say that I cheated.
yeah you're gonna have to go discuss the philosophy of how you measure science per minute or fish per minute in that other thread.
the precise point of this thread isn't just to declare "I have X fish per minute", it's to show HOW you do it. see my Bob's base thread in my signature for an example.