Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

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DerGraue
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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by DerGraue »

Zistack wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:33 pm
As long as the proportion of pipes that I save due to predictable flow is greater than the proportion of slowdown I get from the new system, I still win on performance.
You seem to assume that the "other" system would have made everything faster and higher throughput. That was not the plan, at some point the devs even thought about adding viscosity to the different fluids which could in turn result in slower fluid transportation speed. You know, heavy oil, crude oil, I would think that should move slower than water. So be careful what you wish for. In the end it might have been more heavy on CPU calculation and you still would need more pipes.

You just don't have infinite throughput with pipes. Same thing with belts, it's just not a number written in a tool tip and nobody is complaining there.

Also, about predictability: If you build a pipe in the real world and attach a junction, do you really think a fluid going through that pipe would split perfectly evenly? No, it would not. Never. So why should it do that in the game? This has nothing to do with how the game calculates fluids, but why complain if it doesn't even exist in the first place?

I personally am glad how the fluid system turned out to be. I take better optimization over some edge case predictability every day.

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jodokus31
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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by jodokus31 »

coppercoil wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:56 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:46 pm
You might add a wire, if fluid greater 1000, then activate both pumps
That's called "workaround". If you play like a pro, you can really fix many things. Average and newbie players cannot do that.
Maybe something for tips & tricks.

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ptx0
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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by ptx0 »

Yoyobuae wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:44 pm
ptx0 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:33 pm
Yoyobuae wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:28 am
No, it's not due to pipes.

80% of the UPS impact of a nuclear powerplant is due to steam engines and heatexchangers.
yeah, it's due to fluids.

...which steam engines and heat exchangers have inside.
Pipes also have fluids inside, yet you can have literally over a million of them with UPS still running at 60.
but no electricity! that would be dangerous. :!:
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Re: I won't be kept silent about this forgotten gem: Liquid Mechanics Rework

Post by Drury »

Yoyobuae wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:20 am
Silari wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:14 pm
The UPS improvements were only a part of the planned changes. It was more about getting liquid flow to be more predictable - like making pipe build order not matter.
That ain't happening.

And build order doesn't matter in 99% of the cases. If fluid evaluation order is somehow breaking some design, then there's likely something wrong with that design (ie. not enough supply, or running into pipe throughput limits).
You routinely run into pipe throughput limits when designing nuclear.

And it's really odd that you can't just let bots place pipes or it breaks the whole design.
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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged two topics on the exact same subject. Sorry, it took me a couple days to realise they were disctinct threads.
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Re: I won't be kept silent about this forgotten gem: Liquid Mechanics Rework

Post by Yoyobuae »

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Last edited by Yoyobuae on Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I won't be kept silent about this forgotten gem: Liquid Mechanics Rework

Post by ptx0 »

Yoyobuae wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:57 pm
Drury wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:54 am
You routinely run into pipe throughput limits when designing nuclear.

And it's really odd that you can't just let bots place pipes or it breaks the whole design.
If you routinely run into those problems where the whole design is broken due to some pipes placed in the wrong order then you surely have an example of this happening. Can you post it?
why are you being this way? there's a problem with fluid mixing build order, and it's been a problem for years. that's not at question in this thread, which your question is going to derail.

viewtopic.php?p=457154#p457154

and it's been made worse by the fluid mixing changes in 1.x.

can you just, like, calm down a bit and stop taking this whole thing personally?
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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by FasterJump »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:08 pm
coppercoil wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:56 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:46 pm
You might add a wire, if fluid greater 1000, then activate both pumps
That's called "workaround". If you play like a pro, you can really fix many things. Average and newbie players cannot do that.
Maybe something for tips & tricks.
Yes, it is a great idea for tips & tricks.

Actually wiring pumps to regulate oil conversion is what I consider the only mandatory use of circuit wires (because otherwise, heavy/light oil can be depleted by cracking machines, which makes petroleum full, which stops refineries). I suggests to change the behavious of cracking chemical plants to make them inactive when it has more than 0.01 Liquid in it.

edit: typo (removed "it can ")
Last edited by FasterJump on Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by SoShootMe »

FasterJump wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:55 pm
Actually wiring pumps to regulate oil conversion is what I consider the only mandatory use of circuit wires (because otherwise, it can heavy/light oil can be depleted by cracking machines, which makes petroleum full, which stops refineries).
There are certainly benefits of using the circuit network as part of oil processing (more than anywhere else I think), but it isn't mandatory. Usually, you are short of petroleum gas and have an excess of both heavy and light oil. This means you want to ensure sufficient heavy oil and light oil for the things that need those specifically, and crack the remainder.

In other words, you need to prioritise use over cracking; this can be achieved in a manner similar to how an inserter earlier on a belt gets priority over an inserter further along. For example: run a pipeline carrying all heavy oil output past lubricant plants before it reaches heavy oil cracking plants; and along a pipeline carrying all light oil output (including heavy oil cracking), place a pump with the output leading to solid/rocket fuel, before the pipeline reaches light oil cracking plants.

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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by jamiechi1 »

FasterJump wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:55 pm
Actually wiring pumps to regulate oil conversion is what I consider the only mandatory use of circuit wires ...
I pretty much always do this and don't even think about it much any more. So I generally don't have issues here.

As for Nuclear, I have never used more than two pairs of nuclear plants in a game so performance there is not an issue for me.

The biggest problems I have had is to get fluid to flow properly in a base designed with Bob's mods (without Angels for me). Towards the end game with just attempting to launch one rocket, I struggle to get things to work. I can easily imagine the difficulties inherent in building a Megabase. If there is a thread that discusses this issue for Bob's mods, I would greatly appreciate someone pointing the way. (If I missed something relevant to this mentioned earlier in this thread I apologize.)

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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by ptx0 »

jamiechi1 wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:47 am
FasterJump wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:55 pm
Actually wiring pumps to regulate oil conversion is what I consider the only mandatory use of circuit wires ...
I pretty much always do this and don't even think about it much any more. So I generally don't have issues here.

As for Nuclear, I have never used more than two pairs of nuclear plants in a game so performance there is not an issue for me.

The biggest problems I have had is to get fluid to flow properly in a base designed with Bob's mods (without Angels for me). Towards the end game with just attempting to launch one rocket, I struggle to get things to work. I can easily imagine the difficulties inherent in building a Megabase. If there is a thread that discusses this issue for Bob's mods, I would greatly appreciate someone pointing the way. (If I missed something relevant to this mentioned earlier in this thread I apologize.)
you're probably not using productivity modules but overall your post seems to belong somewhere else, like general playthrough help for Bob's. this thread is about people asking for fluid rework.
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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by jamiechi1 »

ptx0 wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:16 pm
jamiechi1 wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:47 am
FasterJump wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:55 pm
Actually wiring pumps to regulate oil conversion is what I consider the only mandatory use of circuit wires ...
I pretty much always do this and don't even think about it much any more. So I generally don't have issues here.

As for Nuclear, I have never used more than two pairs of nuclear plants in a game so performance there is not an issue for me.

The biggest problems I have had is to get fluid to flow properly in a base designed with Bob's mods (without Angels for me). Towards the end game with just attempting to launch one rocket, I struggle to get things to work. I can easily imagine the difficulties inherent in building a Megabase. If there is a thread that discusses this issue for Bob's mods, I would greatly appreciate someone pointing the way. (If I missed something relevant to this mentioned earlier in this thread I apologize.)
you're probably not using productivity modules but overall your post seems to belong somewhere else, like general playthrough help for Bob's. this thread is about people asking for fluid rework.
For some of it, yes. I am basically responding to another persons post. My point is the fluid system does need to be reworked in some fashion to make it easier for heavy mods like Bob's to work properly or in a much simpler fashion. (Yes, I know the point of Bob's mods is to make things more difficult.)

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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by ptx0 »

jamiechi1 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:35 am
For some of it, yes. I am basically responding to another persons post. My point is the fluid system does need to be reworked in some fashion to make it easier for heavy mods like Bob's to work properly or in a much simpler fashion. (Yes, I know the point of Bob's mods is to make things more difficult.)
as i'm working 700h+ on 1 million SPM in Bob's, I can say that direct-insertion builds are the key so you don't have any throughput issues whatsoever.

either that or gas bottles on belts - a remarkably workable solution.
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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by DarkShadow44 »

Does anyone still know the method that was last proposed for the new fluid system? There seems to have been a half finished version already, but I'm not sure if there's still someone around who understands that one. I'd like to play around with the new ideas..

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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by Koub »

Allow me to add this here : viewtopic.php?p=544895#p544895.
It's one of the devs' explantation on why the fluid system's remaining oddities might still be there for a long time.
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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by DarkShadow44 »

Sure, but didn't Dominik already have some half finished implementation? According to that FFF, it wasn't too slow and even 1-pass. That's what I mean.

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Re: Is the Fluid Rework still planned?

Post by Silari »

There's some pictures showing it was in the game, but no indication as to how actually finished it was. It's also 2 and a half years old at this point. Portions of the game have changed since then, and it may have required that fluids not be able to mix at all, a change that was introduced in FF-274 and later removed because it couldn't be properly enforced with all the corner cases.

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