Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post all other topics which do not belong to any other category.
Post Reply
maxp779
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:39 pm
Contact:

Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by maxp779 »

Do you guys put lasers up front? Or flame throwers? Gun turrets? I see this guy has put together an entire blueprint book of tileable defences:
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... l_defense/

He's got the flamers behind everything else.

I currently have (front to back) flamers, lasers, gun turrets. But idk im thinking about moving the flame turrets because they're probably the most valuable ones, I don't think they should be in front.

EDIT: Also how big of a deal is friendly fire with flame turrets? This is why I put them in the front, to avoid it. But i've never actually witnessed it.

jodokus31
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by jodokus31 »

Flamer turrets have the biggest range, so it makes sense to put them way back. They always shoot in the enemy area. If you have a wall, where nothing can pass, it will only shoot there (with some tiles spreading.) So, usually no danger for other turrets, only if they breach the wall.
Flamers are very, very strong for big waves and consumes very little oil.

Gun turrets have lowest range and lasers middle. Gun turrets are more powerful with green ammo, but have running cost (ammo) and logistics.

Maybe you can try to kill the waves with flamers and lasers (lasers in front), and only if they get to to close your gun turrets help out. (This help reduces running cost). Or you put gun turrets in front to have the most firepower at the same spot to kill the waves very fast.

Or you use landmines, which can be replenished by bots, but then without flamers, because here is friendly fire are thing. Landmines are very strong and cheap.

Premu
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by Premu »

My personal defense consists out of Flamer turrets in front, covered by gun turrets behind them. I only use laser turrets in corners where I can't resupply the other two types. I really don't see any need in more firepower anyway as basically nothing can breach these two lines of turrets.

I put the flame turrets in the front for a simple reason - they have loads of hit points. If large groups of enemies arrives including behemoth spitters, a few of them might get a shot before being roasted and gunned down. Gun turrets go down after a few hits, while flame turrets will be able soak up that damage, even if a massive attack wave arrives.

Serenity
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 868
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:16 am
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by Serenity »

Flamethrowers have a minimum range, so range-wise they are best in the back. Just make sure the cone doesn't touch the wall

Theikkru
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by Theikkru »

Serenity wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:40 pm
[...]Just make sure the cone doesn't touch the wall
Walls have 100% fire resistance, so it's fine if the cone touches; you'll just get a few singe marks.

Guenni7
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 5:53 am
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by Guenni7 »

I guess it depends on the resources you have and what science you have available,
but in general I wouldn't mix different turrets in a defence.
Strongest defence in late game is the gun turret with green ammo,
so don't waste too much energy on laser science, instead concentrate on gun turret and ammo.
In my actual map I have gun-turrets/green ammo only, inserters between the turrrets auto-deploy the ammo in a circle around the base.
I don't have walls, because of the limited range of gun turrets the behemoth spitters can hammer the wall without getting into shooting-range.

Premu
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by Premu »

Guenni7 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:10 pm
I guess it depends on the resources you have and what science you have available,
but in general I wouldn't mix different turrets in a defence.
Strongest defence in late game is the gun turret with green ammo,
so don't waste too much energy on laser science, instead concentrate on gun turret and ammo.
In my actual map I have gun-turrets/green ammo only, inserters between the turrrets auto-deploy the ammo in a circle around the base.
I don't have walls, because of the limited range of gun turrets the behemoth spitters can hammer the wall without getting into shooting-range.
Flame thrower towers need a second type of tower as support or they will quickly fall. For one they have a minimum range. On top of that they normally miss the first enemies which arrive. If a large group is behind that group will get roasted, but if flame thrower turrets are your sole defence they will be breached by the leader of the attacking group, even if it's the only one who survived.

Gun turrets with green ammo are extremely strong, though, especially with the extra damage research. I prefer them to laser turrets for that reason. A full line of gun turrets with green ammo can hold up most attacks on its own actually, you need pretty massive attacks to suffer a breakin. Still I would recommend to build a wall. Behemoth spitters could theoretically snipe the wall out of the turrets reach to make the way free for the biters - but I've never seen that. They normally move into the turrets range and start to shoot at the turrets (Which at this point can shoot back and will do a lot more damage). A wall will protect your gun turrets from direct biter attacks, and they really need protection as they have significant less hitpoints than laser or flamer turrets.

Guenni7
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 5:53 am
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by Guenni7 »

Premu wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:43 pm
Still I would recommend to build a wall. Behemoth spitters could theoretically snipe the wall out of the turrets reach to make the way free for the biters - but I've never seen that. They normally move into the turrets range and start to shoot at the turrets (Which at this point can shoot back and will do a lot more damage). A wall will protect your gun turrets from direct biter attacks, and they really need protection as they have significant less hitpoints than laser or flamer turrets.
I had a wall first, but every 15mins I got an alarm because two or three behemot-spitters were firing at the wall (and the repair bots), so I tried it without wall and comes out even for the worst attacks I don't need it. Might be because of projectile damage research 16 finished :mrgreen:

Premu
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by Premu »

Guenni7 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:01 am
Premu wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:43 pm
Still I would recommend to build a wall. Behemoth spitters could theoretically snipe the wall out of the turrets reach to make the way free for the biters - but I've never seen that. They normally move into the turrets range and start to shoot at the turrets (Which at this point can shoot back and will do a lot more damage). A wall will protect your gun turrets from direct biter attacks, and they really need protection as they have significant less hitpoints than laser or flamer turrets.
I had a wall first, but every 15mins I got an alarm because two or three behemot-spitters were firing at the wall (and the repair bots), so I tried it without wall and comes out even for the worst attacks I don't need it. Might be because of projectile damage research 16 finished :mrgreen:
OK, once you're able to kill even behomths with one or at most two bullets, the wall becomes obsolete. :lol:

Still, I have never experienced spitters actually targeting the wall - I build it two fields in front of the turrets so that the larger biters can't attack the turrets, and the wall gets only damaged as colleteral damage.

coppercoil
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:14 am
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by coppercoil »

OT: are there any threads discussing linear defense alternatives? I could not find any (geometric art doesn't count).
I just saw yet another laser wall, but I think it is less effective unless you use 2+ rows of lasers.

maxp779
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:39 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by maxp779 »

coppercoil wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:34 am
OT: are there any threads discussing linear defense alternatives? I could not find any (geometric art doesn't count).
I just saw yet another laser wall, but I think it is less effective unless you use 2+ rows of lasers.
Idk but i've seen people use walls like dragons teeth and put belts into the defences. Also saw someone using a train to just run over bites. The "trainsaw" he called it. Someone else mentioned just using outposts instead of 1 continuous wall.

Premu
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by Premu »

maxp779 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:28 pm
coppercoil wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:34 am
OT: are there any threads discussing linear defense alternatives? I could not find any (geometric art doesn't count).
I just saw yet another laser wall, but I think it is less effective unless you use 2+ rows of lasers.
Idk but i've seen people use walls like dragons teeth and put belts into the defences. Also saw someone using a train to just run over bites. The "trainsaw" he called it. Someone else mentioned just using outposts instead of 1 continuous wall.
There are some really extensive defense designs. I don't think they are really necessary or economical in a game with unmodded biters, though. Once you have the ability to build such defensive structures, you should be able to simply put a continues line of turrets down. Gun turrets with green ammo are already extremely powerful. Add flame throwers as second line and virtually nothing the natives can send to you has a chance to do any significant damage. More extensive defenses like dragon teeth would most likely force you to make more repairs than a simple design, as there is more stuff which the biters will destroy before getting close.

sushi_eater
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by sushi_eater »

Premu wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:35 pm
I put the flame turrets in the front for a simple reason - they have loads of hit points. If large groups of enemies arrives including behemoth spitters, a few of them might get a shot before being roasted and gunned down. Gun turrets go down after a few hits, while flame turrets will be able soak up that damage, even if a massive attack wave arrives.
Behemoth spitters take out pipes with splash damage, when they attack flamethrower turrets. Gun turrets are much more robust than pipes. If they are fed with long handed inserters, the inserters don't get destroyed. If a few turrets get destroyed in a huge attack wave that's not a big deal. Biters go after the other turrets first and don't run straight into the factory.

Premu wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:43 pm
Flame thrower towers need a second type of tower as support or they will quickly fall.
They don't. A wall is enough. You will loose a fair amount of pipes (behemoth splash damage) and bots though.
Premu wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:43 pm
A wall will protect your gun turrets from direct biter attacks, and they really need protection as they have significant less hitpoints than laser or flamer turrets.
You don't need walls, if you have enough gun turrets to prevent them from constantly getting destroyed by spitters. If biters are able to reach the turrets, spitters in mixed attack waves have a huge amount of time to kill the turrets.

Optymistyk
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by Optymistyk »

maxp779 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:28 pm
coppercoil wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:34 am
OT: are there any threads discussing linear defense alternatives? I could not find any (geometric art doesn't count).
I just saw yet another laser wall, but I think it is less effective unless you use 2+ rows of lasers.
Idk but i've seen people use walls like dragons teeth and put belts into the defences. Also saw someone using a train to just run over bites. The "trainsaw" he called it. Someone else mentioned just using outposts instead of 1 continuous wall.
I love using funnels. Using good funnels + decent turret density = no damage taken ever. Funnels are a wall formation that slows biters down and forces them into chokepoints. A good funnel is not deemed worth attacking by biters, but it makes a huge difference. First, your turrets have more time to kill the biters before they reach your actual walls. Second, flameturrets and mines can work wonders with funnels. Most importantly, it allows you to kill the enemy frontline before spitters even get into range. Once they do they get focused down and die before they can damage anything

jodokus31
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by jodokus31 »

sushi_eater wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:52 am
Premu wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:43 pm
Flame thrower towers need a second type of tower as support or they will quickly fall.
They don't. A wall is enough. You will loose a fair amount of pipes (behemoth splash damage) and bots though.
Does anybody test, what happens, if you have only flamethrowers, which are placed out-of-range of spitters behind a wall? Do spitters attack the wall then?

Premu
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by Premu »

sushi_eater wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:52 am
Premu wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:35 pm
I put the flame turrets in the front for a simple reason - they have loads of hit points. If large groups of enemies arrives including behemoth spitters, a few of them might get a shot before being roasted and gunned down. Gun turrets go down after a few hits, while flame turrets will be able soak up that damage, even if a massive attack wave arrives.
Behemoth spitters take out pipes with splash damage, when they attack flamethrower turrets. Gun turrets are much more robust than pipes. If they are fed with long handed inserters, the inserters don't get destroyed. If a few turrets get destroyed in a huge attack wave that's not a big deal. Biters go after the other turrets first and don't run straight into the factory.
There are no pipes in range of spitters in my defenses, it's a continues line of flame thrower turrets directly connected to each other. :D

And in my current game with evloution at 0.95 not a single turret or wall segment has been destroyed where I used my wall - flamers - gun turrets design.

coppercoil
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:14 am
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by coppercoil »

Premu wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:58 pm
There are some really extensive defense designs. I don't think they are really necessary or economical in a game with unmodded biters, though. Once you have the ability to build such defensive structures, you should be able to simply put a continues line of turrets down.
There are simple non-linear defense designs, that have better damage per running tile and cost per perimeter ratio. I just wanted find a proper thread to discuss it.
simple non linear defense

orzelek
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3763
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:20 am
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by orzelek »

coppercoil wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:16 pm
Premu wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:58 pm
There are some really extensive defense designs. I don't think they are really necessary or economical in a game with unmodded biters, though. Once you have the ability to build such defensive structures, you should be able to simply put a continues line of turrets down.
There are simple non-linear defense designs, that have better damage per running tile and cost per perimeter ratio. I just wanted find a proper thread to discuss it.
simple non linear defense
I've used variant of this but with mods - so I had sniper turrets from bob's that have long range.
Since biters will get distracted when attacked you can have those quite sparse and they still guarantee biters won't get through.
(It only failed once when distraction was bugged.. then they went past to create nest inside protected area)

sushi_eater
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by sushi_eater »

jodokus31 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:02 pm
Does anybody test, what happens, if you have only flamethrowers, which are placed out-of-range of spitters behind a wall? Do spitters attack the wall then?
They sometimes stay out of turret range and attack the wall. If the wall is in repair range, the bots get continuously killed. If it's outside repair range, a persistent spitter may take out a long stretch of wall.

jodokus31
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Defensive turret line order, what turret is best up front?

Post by jodokus31 »

sushi_eater wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:17 pm
jodokus31 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:02 pm
Does anybody test, what happens, if you have only flamethrowers, which are placed out-of-range of spitters behind a wall? Do spitters attack the wall then?
They sometimes stay out of turret range and attack the wall. If the wall is in repair range, the bots get continuously killed. If it's outside repair range, a persistent spitter may take out a long stretch of wall.
OK, thanks. It somewhat worked decently with small spitters and medium biters, but it's probably a matter of time until they keep out of turret range and hammering the wall.

Post Reply

Return to “General discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users