Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

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conn11
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Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by conn11 »

You want the amazing Spidertron too?
But enviromental destruction and overfishing left you blank of any pilot fish brains for spidertron?
No problem!

enter space science
enter space science
prae_launch.JPG (135.48 KiB) Viewed 2602 times
get fish
get fish
post_launch.JPG (137.71 KiB) Viewed 2602 times
A little bit expensive, but really cool!
Last edited by conn11 on Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by Qon »

From my testing: You get 1 fish/ science pack.
If you "autolaunch with cargo" to automate production of fish, then you only get 12 (or whatever a single inserter can deliver) science packs inserted since the rocket doesn't wait for more to be delivered. :(
Would be nice if it waited for inactivity for a second or so so we can fill it up more and aren't forced to fill it up manually to get 100 fish per launch instead of 12.

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by DaveMcW »

You can use 10 inserters with a stack size of 10 to insert exactly 100 science packs.

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by conn11 »

DaveMcW wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:47 pm
You can use 10 inserters with a stack size of 10 to insert exactly 100 science packs.
Thought the same, but just tried that, it yielded only 10 fish.
Here's a simple build following up Qon's research.


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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by Qon »

DaveMcW wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:47 pm
You can use 10 inserters with a stack size of 10 to insert exactly 100 science packs.
I'm never wrong. :ugeek:
I test before I speak 8-)
Try it yourself ;)

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by DaveMcW »

You are right. This should be reported as a bug.

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[Spoilers] The importance of fish production

Post by TaxiService »

12/12/20 EDIT: this post was originally its own thread and was then merged in here.
it looks out of context, but the problems and the attempted workarounds are explained thorouhgly.
anything between this line and Koub's post was in the original thread.
__________________________________________


Hello. I'd like to have a discussion about fish production.

No, I don't mean fishing systems like this:
Image

I mean actual fish production. Assembling fish out of other resources.

If you don't know what i'm talking about and don't want to have this stuff spoiled to you, I strongly advise you to not read further.
If you are in dire need of fish, you can have this for now: (bp seen above)

I repeat: do not read this thread if you dont want spoilers about fish production.

That said,
i want to hear other players' opinion on one mechanic involved in fish production.

(spoilers ahead. last warning) (there's a spoiler-free TL;DR at the end)
.

Silos are unique entities. They're only ever used to win the game or produce space packs.
Usually they are used with items with stacksize 1 (satellites, vehicles), but since 1.0, they have got a new functionality.

That is, of course, producing fish. By launching a rocket with [redacted] in it, you can get up to a full stack of fish per rocket!

Since the item to fish ratio is 1:1, and this item stacks to more than 100, this means that if we were to put a whole stack of it in a rocket, we would effectively waste the rest of the stack.

Limiting the input inserters sounds easy enough, but another issue emerges: If you set the rocket to auto-launch with cargo, the rocket is launched immediately as soon as it detects an item in its inventory.

The rocket's payload slot appears only once it has been built 100% and after the "Preparing..." phase, and there is no way to directly control rocket launches apart from payload insertion.
(silos have no circuit network capabilities, and launching a prepared rocket requires no power)

All of this means that if you want a full stack of fish you need to insert exactly 100 items at once in the silo while the rocket is ready and waiting.

This is a beautiful puzzle to solve, and the tools to do it are at a player's disposal.

...except, at the last moment, the game punches you in the gonads.

if you set up multiple inserters to activate on the same tick and try loading items in a rocket with them, the rocket will grab only one of the stacks and immediately take off, leaving the other inserters hanging.

I consider this to be a bug and reported it. Link to thread: (SNEAKY LINK)

Now, during beta there has never was a reason to mess around with inserting specific amounts of items into rockets, so this once normal behaviour has now become an issue.

I call it an issue because this silo-specific behaviour is unintuitive. In the rest of the game you can usually get around limitations like these, but this single-stack insertion limit seems exclusive for silos.

I say seems because i haven't tested with assembly machines because i can't simply make one depart...
but if you test the same inserters on a train set to depart as soon as it detects an item in its inventory, all the stacks make it into the wagon before departure.

...In any case, it is unintuitive for the silo to behave differently than a wagon, and by extension any other multi-tile inventory-bearing entity.

Why does the silo ignore all but one stacks and a wagon doesn't?
And to those droning on about how it's "working as intended", let me rephrase that for you:

Is the silo really intended to act like that?

I think not. I think it shouldn't be. Don't you see the implications?
If the way it works now was "intended", it means that Wube wants me to get at most 12 fish out of one rocket, if i were to automate fish production.

This lowers efficiency almost tenfold compared to the 100 you would get if the inserters would work predictably!

Currently, the most efficient way to produce fish is to launch rockets manually.
Without auto-launch, you can automate everything up to the point of inserting the right amount of stuff in the rocket... but then you have to push a button!

Doesn't it drive you nuts how fish: the ultimate production challenge in a game about automation, requires manual confirmation?

"Just use this mod with a 100-stack inserter..!"
Piss off. That's not the point!
.

Sorry, that was long-winded af. I tried to keep sentences concise, but some things just take lots of sentences to explain.

But what do you think? Do you agree with me? Disagree? Do you think that maybe i'm looking too much into this?
How important is this problem to you, reader? Please let me know.

and thank you for your time <3

TL;DR: Tell me how you feel about needing manual input for resource efficient fish production.
I argue for it being against the core of the game and want to hear what you think.



PS: I hope general discussion is the right place for this...

PPS: sometimes i fear to come across as an ass, i don't mean it! i am honestly just looking for other people's considerations on this matter.
Last edited by TaxiService on Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Spoilers] The importance of fish production

Post by conn11 »

This has been discussed before, though with inconclusive results.

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged into existing discussion on the subject.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by Ifalna »

I wonder if it would be possible to cut power to the silo when the rocket is at 100% and re-enable it once the stack size reaches 100.
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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by astroshak »

That .. is likely not doable, not if the silo requires no power to launch a rocket.

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by Yoyobuae »

Ifalna wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:36 pm
I wonder if it would be possible to cut power to the silo when the rocket is at 100% and re-enable it once the stack size reaches 100.
They launch sequence proceeds even without power.

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by blazespinnaker »

DaveMcW wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:29 pm
You are right. This should be reported as a bug.
Lol! What a classic Dave quote.
OptimaUPS Mod, pm for info.

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by blazespinnaker »

Qon wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:55 pm
From my testing: You get 1 fish/ science pack.
If you "autolaunch with cargo" to automate production of fish, then you only get 12 (or whatever a single inserter can deliver) science packs inserted since the rocket doesn't wait for more to be delivered. :(
Would be nice if it waited for inactivity for a second or so so we can fill it up more and aren't forced to fill it up manually to get 100 fish per launch instead of 12.
hmm, combinator doesn't help?
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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by Stevetrov »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:33 am
Qon wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:55 pm
From my testing: You get 1 fish/ science pack.
If you "autolaunch with cargo" to automate production of fish, then you only get 12 (or whatever a single inserter can deliver) science packs inserted since the rocket doesn't wait for more to be delivered. :(
Would be nice if it waited for inactivity for a second or so so we can fill it up more and aren't forced to fill it up manually to get 100 fish per launch instead of 12.
hmm, combinator doesn't help?
I played around with this a bit and it appears that the rocket is launched as soon as cargo is put in its slot, the mechanism internally appears to be a call-back function and the rocket is launched as part of inserter::update and not rocketSilo::update.

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by TaxiService »

There is just no way to (automatically) input more than 12 items simultaneously in a silo right now.

Here is what we know:
- once a rocket is ready, the silo does not require power to launch. (meaning power switches are useless for launch control)
- silos have no circuit network capabilities. (meaning you are stuck with controlling inserters)
- the payload slot only appears when a rocket is ready. (meaning you can't arbitrarily prepare the cargo before launch)
- if auto-launch is enabled, the silo will depart as soon as an item appears in the payload slot. (meaning you only have 1 tick to work with)

So far nothing prevents us from controlling the amount of items, but then there's this!!! :

- if multiple inserters insert items in a silo on the same tick, the silo can only grab items from one of them at once.

Can we all agree this is a bug?
I have reported it here, and this was the response i got:
Rseding91 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:47 pm
Moving to minor issues as there is no "clean" answer. If the rocket waited until the input stack was full it would just delete almost all of the science as the fish don't stack anywhere near that high.
That solution might not be clean, but we don't need that.
We need the silo to recognize that multiple inserters are trying to load things into it simultaneously.
It can still depart as soon as an item is detected, but it should detect all of the inserters interacting with it if they are synchronized!

This way the silo's functionality does not change: an accidental stack of items ending in the rocket will still trigger a launch.
The difference is that now you can utilize this building to its full potential.
my mods and 'prints

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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by Durr »

Wouldn't it be simpler and cleaner to just give the silo circuit network capabilities? All you would need is read contents and launch on circuit signal.
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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

Durr wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:34 pm
Wouldn't it be simpler and cleaner to just give the silo circuit network capabilities? All you would need is read contents and launch on circuit signal.
This makes the most sense to me, but the devs have been pretty consistent about not adding circuit connections to production facilities.
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Re: Thanks for all the fish! (Cave spoiler Spidertron)

Post by pichutarius »

another work around is to return 100 fish (or 50 or whatever) for any amount of space science pack inserted into it.

previously the silo doesn't care about the amount, only the content. so one might say this maintains the properties.

fun fact:
each space sp cost around 20 iron, 30 copper, 70 oil (fully prod4)
with 100 fish = 1 space sp, we have 1 fish = 0.2 iron + 0.3 copper + 0.7 oil

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