Meaningful Content Update

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MeduSalem
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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by MeduSalem »

Mythoss wrote: ↑
Tue May 05, 2020 5:19 pm
I never noticed any bugs playing Prison Architect and the game ran great. Unless you own a toaster I doubt anyone had performance issues.
Well then simply put you didn't look too deep into it or otherwise you'd probably have encountered one of the tons of glitches with their UI, entity pathing issues, regime conflicts/issues, zoning issues, deployment issues, tons of job issues, bugs with the needs system, items disappearing for no apparent reason and the tons of other weird glitches that existed long before and long after they left early-access/alpha (which at least was an excuse for a lot of those things happening).

Also the performance issues even without additional map expansions have been reported countless times on their forums, bugtrackers and elsewhere. So I wouldn't say it is just a problem of owning a toaster as PC.
Mythoss wrote: ↑
Tue May 05, 2020 5:19 pm
They were a tiny team that worked on the game for years so I can understand the fatigue.
I know they are/were a small team and I also can understand fatigue after many years of work on the same project when you already want to do something else but it doesn't excuse the mentality of producing tons of content with minimal quality control. If you do that you have to be aware that at the end of the road there will be a bazillion bugs and other quality problems to fix.

Just tossing that part off to another company... is strictly said... irresponsible.

Also they could have called an end to the feature creep anytime and concentrate on fixing what's there like many people have told them over the course of development. They put that burden of more and more content until quality control eventually outgrew their means on themselves all by themselves. Now they have to live with the consequences that some people, like me, are kinda disappointed of the way they treated this. Not like they would care much now that they tossed the burden off to someone else anyway.

If you can't pull the weight then just don't put such a load on your shoulders in the first place.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by Koub »

Quality vs quantity. Some prefer quantity over quality.
Like MeduSalem, I prefer quality over quantity.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by 5thHorseman »

Mythoss wrote: ↑
Tue May 05, 2020 5:19 pm
The point I am trying to make is development is really, really slow with Factorio. Yet we have indie devolopers with similar games pushing out way more content in the same time span.
I suspect you and I define "similar" differently.

By my definition there are no games similar to Factorio, though I can see why others would say Prison Architect and Rimworld are.

And speaking of Rimworld, yeah they keep coming out with new content without polishing the old stuff. Makes the unplayable mess of a game more complex but no more playable. I'll take the super-polished Factorio any day over that.
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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by posila »

Mythoss wrote: ↑
Tue May 05, 2020 5:19 pm
(which shoulda been hd from the start)
From FFF #4 loooong before high-res option was added to the game, and when there was much less content.
After the 0.7 release we got some complaints that the game is using too much video memory. Some players couldn't even load the game for this reason. The 0.7.2 fixes this by providing the low resolution mode (in the graphics settings, needs a restart). In this mode, some of the sprites are scaled down before loading into the atlas. The resulting quality is lower, but the game will fit within 256MB video memory.
I mean ... I really shouldn't get tilted by these off-hand remarks, but ... sigh. "They should have made Age of Empires in HD from the start." "They should have made Uncharted 1 look as good as Uncharted 3, those game run on the same console HW!"

Other than that, there is nothing wrong on wanting more content, or criticizing long development cycles.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by Mythoss »

posila wrote: ↑
Wed May 06, 2020 6:37 pm
Mythoss wrote: ↑
Tue May 05, 2020 5:19 pm
(which shoulda been hd from the start)
From FFF #4 loooong before high-res option was added to the game, and when there was much less content.
After the 0.7 release we got some complaints that the game is using too much video memory. Some players couldn't even load the game for this reason. The 0.7.2 fixes this by providing the low resolution mode (in the graphics settings, needs a restart). In this mode, some of the sprites are scaled down before loading into the atlas. The resulting quality is lower, but the game will fit within 256MB video memory.
I mean ... I really shouldn't get tilted by these off-hand remarks, but ... sigh. "They should have made Age of Empires in HD from the start." "They should have made Uncharted 1 look as good as Uncharted 3, those game run on the same console HW!"

Other than that, there is nothing wrong on wanting more content, or criticizing long development cycles.
Someone will always try to play a game on a toaster. You have to cut off the lowest common denominator somewhere. And also, that's why games have graphic sliders. My gripe isn't really with the graphics, I actually like them, but the wasted time on redundancy.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by Mythoss »

5thHorseman wrote: ↑
Wed May 06, 2020 3:34 am
Mythoss wrote: ↑
Tue May 05, 2020 5:19 pm
The point I am trying to make is development is really, really slow with Factorio. Yet we have indie devolopers with similar games pushing out way more content in the same time span.
I suspect you and I define "similar" differently.

By my definition there are no games similar to Factorio, though I can see why others would say Prison Architect and Rimworld are.

And speaking of Rimworld, yeah they keep coming out with new content without polishing the old stuff. Makes the unplayable mess of a game more complex but no more playable. I'll take the super-polished Factorio any day over that.
Wait, whaaaat? Satisfactory is a lot like Factorio as is Automation Empire. Both getting significantly more content updates at a much faster rate.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by MrFactorio »

Mythoss wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:08 am
While I enjoy reading the blog and seeing small tweaks and graphical updates to the game, none of it is enough to really pull me back into the game. I've been reading the Friday blog for years now, and I can't help but be a little disappointed that there hasn't really been many new features.

I keep hoping for new, significant, impactful features, some random ideas:

New bitter enemies with interesting ai. Flying biters, burrowing biters that can bypass walls, new anti air turrets to deal with the new threats. Boss biters that only rarely show up but are a significant threat.

Structures you can build on or underwater that have items in the production chains.

New vehicles to combat the threat.

More upgrades, items and weapons.

New biomes that actually feel alien and weird. Instead we have basically earth biomes.
The biomes don't even seem to really matter or have different resources to gather from. Biomes are really just a reskin, though admittedly pretty.

A single player (coop?) campaign with interesting goals and objects that can't be found in sandbox.

Mobile bases with trains with new cabs to build. Imagine if a cab could unpack and work as a factory or smelter? Maybe a turret or defense focused cab in addition to the artillery. So much cool stuff you could do with trains.

Maybe a whole new alien threat that isn't biters?

A tower defense modes with challenging waves of enemies that progressively gets harder as time goes on. This could be designed around coop with 4 people or something.

I realize it's a small team and making a quality game takes time, but sometimes I have to wonder if your priorities are in the wrong place. I really don't care about better switches, or railroading pathing, mod debugging, ect. After years of small updates the game needs some more meat on its bones to get players back.
I feel the exact same. I am always reading the friday blogs hoping for some new content.
I would love to see some new enemy types or new content like defense structures or vehicles.

There are some really awesome mods out there but so far only one mod adds really new enemies (armored biters) and they lack a bit of high resolution in comparison to the vanilla biters.

I love to play this game a bit like Starship Troopers with a very deep economy and tech tree.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by 5thHorseman »

Mythoss wrote: ↑
Fri May 08, 2020 3:42 pm
Wait, whaaaat? Satisfactory is a lot like Factorio as is Automation Empire. Both getting significantly more content updates at a much faster rate.
Satisfactory is like Factorio Lite. Haven't played Automation Empire.

Come back and tell me in 8 years how much current development either is getting.
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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by Mythoss »

MrFactorio wrote: ↑
Fri May 08, 2020 8:22 pm
Mythoss wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:08 am
While I enjoy reading the blog and seeing small tweaks and graphical updates to the game, none of it is enough to really pull me back into the game. I've been reading the Friday blog for years now, and I can't help but be a little disappointed that there hasn't really been many new features.

I keep hoping for new, significant, impactful features, some random ideas:

New bitter enemies with interesting ai. Flying biters, burrowing biters that can bypass walls, new anti air turrets to deal with the new threats. Boss biters that only rarely show up but are a significant threat.

Structures you can build on or underwater that have items in the production chains.

New vehicles to combat the threat.

More upgrades, items and weapons.

New biomes that actually feel alien and weird. Instead we have basically earth biomes.
The biomes don't even seem to really matter or have different resources to gather from. Biomes are really just a reskin, though admittedly pretty.

A single player (coop?) campaign with interesting goals and objects that can't be found in sandbox.

Mobile bases with trains with new cabs to build. Imagine if a cab could unpack and work as a factory or smelter? Maybe a turret or defense focused cab in addition to the artillery. So much cool stuff you could do with trains.

Maybe a whole new alien threat that isn't biters?

A tower defense modes with challenging waves of enemies that progressively gets harder as time goes on. This could be designed around coop with 4 people or something.

I realize it's a small team and making a quality game takes time, but sometimes I have to wonder if your priorities are in the wrong place. I really don't care about better switches, or railroading pathing, mod debugging, ect. After years of small updates the game needs some more meat on its bones to get players back.
I feel the exact same. I am always reading the friday blogs hoping for some new content.
I would love to see some new enemy types or new content like defense structures or vehicles.

There are some really awesome mods out there but so far only one mod adds really new enemies (armored biters) and they lack a bit of high resolution in comparison to the vanilla biters.

I love to play this game a bit like Starship Troopers with a very deep economy and tech tree.
That's exactly what I want. Well that, with a coop mod where each player can specialize a little bit with their own tech trees to add something to the group with some tower defense mechanic thrown in. I tried the defense mode and it feels really barebones. Cliffs don't spawn either which is odd.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by BattleFluffy »

Mythoss wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:08 am
I keep hoping for new, significant, impactful features, some random ideas:

[ideas]
These are all possible with mods. If you feel like you've exhausted the content the game has to offer, try adding some mods - they can completely change the experience. A lot of the things you mentioned are already available with mods.
I realize it's a small team and making a quality game takes time, but sometimes I have to wonder if your priorities are in the wrong place. I really don't care about better switches, or railroading pathing, mod debugging, ect. After years of small updates the game needs some more meat on its bones to get players back.
I totally disagree with this. Feature creep is exactly what we want to AVOID. I think the devs are on exactly the right track, polishing everything and ensuring total stability. I admire their focus and determination on this goal.

Factorio already has a ton of content. I am always skeptical when people say they have done everything the game has to offer. Really? Did you try some different lategame base architectures? Designed interesting blueprints? Built some complex circuit networks? Played all the scenarios? Played multiplayer? I have over 5000 hours played and I still haven't done everything - and that's before we even get into the massive, extensive mod support. Honestly it boggles my mind that people still suggest the game needs more content this close to 1.0.

One of the great things about Factorio is how stable and optimized it is.
It's a near-perfect gem in a sea of bloated buggy games.
We should value this.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by MrFactorio »

BattleFluffy wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 2:34 am
One of the great things about Factorio is how stable and optimized it is.
It's a near-perfect gem in a sea of bloated buggy games.
We should value this.
You just gave the answer why I totally disagree with you. The game IS already in a absolute stable state where there is so much already optimized that I think its really time for some new content.

For your playstyle there might be already enought content, but if you like to play it a bit more spicey with a bigger focus on warfare, there are just 2 alien models to blow up and this becomes boring after some while.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by khalismur »

MrFactorio wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 8:27 am
[...] if you like to play it a bit more spicey with a bigger focus on warfare, there are just 2 alien models to blow up and this becomes boring after some while.
And that's where the fantastic mods the community has developed come into play! There are many bitter mods.
I'm very glad the base game is very stable, optimized and doesn't suffer from feature creep. Leave that to modders :-)

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by theolderbeholder »

MrFactorio wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 8:27 am
The game IS already in a absolute stable state where there is so much already optimized that I think its really time for some new content.
Feel free to place a preorder for factorio 2, in the meantime you may enjoy what you already got.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by MrFactorio »

khalismur wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 1:18 pm
MrFactorio wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 8:27 am
[...] if you like to play it a bit more spicey with a bigger focus on warfare, there are just 2 alien models to blow up and this becomes boring after some while.
And that's where the fantastic mods the community has developed come into play! There are many bitter mods.
I'm very glad the base game is very stable, optimized and doesn't suffer from feature creep. Leave that to modders :-)
As I have said, there is only one mod that really adds new biter models to the game increasing the number to three. Thats pretty few in my opinion. All other biter mods are just recolored or rescaled versions of existing biters.
theolderbeholder wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 1:45 pm
MrFactorio wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 8:27 am
The game IS already in a absolute stable state where there is so much already optimized that I think its really time for some new content.
Feel free to place a preorder for factorio 2, in the meantime you may enjoy what you already got.
Is it not allowed to discuss about new content??? Dont feel attacked just because there exists people who think that the game lacks some content in some parts of the game and that it is polished enough so they would like to switch the focus of developement over to more content in the future.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by 5thHorseman »

MrFactorio wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 2:23 pm
As I have said, there is only one mod that really adds new biter models to the game increasing the number to three. Thats pretty few in my opinion. All other biter mods are just recolored or rescaled versions of existing biters.
Which strongly implies that "more biter types" isn't of really big importance to players.
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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by khalismur »

5thHorseman wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 2:44 pm
MrFactorio wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 2:23 pm
As I have said, there is only one mod that really adds new biter models to the game increasing the number to three. Thats pretty few in my opinion. All other biter mods are just recolored or rescaled versions of existing biters.
Which strongly implies that "more biter types" isn't of really big importance to players.
Yeah, while base defense is definitely a core feature of the game, for me and I suspect for many others the building of efficient, interesting or messy designs and solving logistic problems are stronger highlights.

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by Oktokolo »

5thHorseman wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 2:44 pm
MrFactorio wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 2:23 pm
As I have said, there is only one mod that really adds new biter models to the game increasing the number to three. Thats pretty few in my opinion. All other biter mods are just recolored or rescaled versions of existing biters.
Which strongly implies that "more biter types" isn't of really big importance to players.
I too am of the opinion, that they definitely should not add any more biters before 1.0.0...
But the absence of biter mods needing 3D modeling and rigging skills is definitely not a good indicater for the absence of players wanting them.
Whether or not someone makes a biter mod introducing new units mostly depends on whether there are 3D artists wanting to make them. It doesn't depend on whether players who are not 3D artists want to play them. And 3D artists seem to be relatively rare in the Factorio modding scene - so the chances that one of them likes combat is not that great.

If a 3D artist reads this: Creating, rigging, and animating new biter units definitely is an achievement perfectly suited for your portfolio. 8-)

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by SyncViews »

Oktokolo wrote: ↑
Mon May 11, 2020 8:04 am
I too am of the opinion, that they definitely should not add any more biters before 1.0.0...
But the absence of biter mods needing 3D modeling and rigging skills is definitely not a good indicater for the absence of players wanting them.
Whether or not someone makes a biter mod introducing new units mostly depends on whether there are 3D artists wanting to make them. It doesn't depend on whether players who are not 3D artists want to play them. And 3D artists seem to be relatively rare in the Factorio modding scene - so the chances that one of them likes combat is not that great.

If a 3D artist reads this: Creating, rigging, and animating new biter units definitely is an achievement perfectly suited for your portfolio. 8-)
Definitely agree with this, I customised biters, spawners, turrets, etc. in some of my playthroughs, to make things interesting for me. But I can't even hope to do the art work for all that animated stuff, so never even tried to polish it to something releasable.

Also some implementation obstacles, I think they are solvable if enough interest, testing, and had some suitable visuals (I didn't feel just adding biters to the normal pollution/wave attacks with an evolution threshold really added much, but then things get really complex).

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by P.E.T.A.R. »

Oktokolo wrote: ↑
Mon May 11, 2020 8:04 am
5thHorseman wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 2:44 pm
MrFactorio wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 2:23 pm
As I have said, there is only one mod that really adds new biter models to the game increasing the number to three. Thats pretty few in my opinion. All other biter mods are just recolored or rescaled versions of existing biters.
Which strongly implies that "more biter types" isn't of really big importance to players.
I too am of the opinion, that they definitely should not add any more biters before 1.0.0...
But the absence of biter mods needing 3D modeling and rigging skills is definitely not a good indicater for the absence of players wanting them.
Whether or not someone makes a biter mod introducing new units mostly depends on whether there are 3D artists wanting to make them. It doesn't depend on whether players who are not 3D artists want to play them. And 3D artists seem to be relatively rare in the Factorio modding scene - so the chances that one of them likes combat is not that great.

If a 3D artist reads this: Creating, rigging, and animating new biter units definitely is an achievement perfectly suited for your portfolio. 8-)
Great point here, and why I also don't think mods are always the answer to every feature request.

I appreciate that they are polishing the game, for me it already has a lot to offer.
That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing some new stuff as well after they are happy with 1.0. :-P

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Re: Meaningful Content Update

Post by Hannu »

MrFactorio wrote: ↑
Sun May 10, 2020 2:23 pm
Is it not allowed to discuss about new content??? Dont feel attacked just because there exists people who think that the game lacks some content in some parts of the game and that it is polished enough so they would like to switch the focus of developement over to more content in the future.
It is allowed to discuss. However, devs have made it very clear that they will not add significant new content before official release. I do not believe that any discussion will change their decision. And as far as I know, they have not actually promised anything after that. Factorio is building and engineering game with some spice of warfare and not a combat game with some building elements. I can understand frustration of combat game lovers, but on the other hand, there are almost infinite number of combat games in market but much more limited number of high quality building and engineering games.

In my opinion simple adding flying or burrowing biters would be only frustrating and boring. Then I had to just add turrets everywhere. There would be no planning, no strategy, on anything interesting. Just put few assemblers to produce guns and spam them around all production plants. Current biters, which do not appear suddenly from nothing, give more reasonable strategic desicions. Where to build defense lines, how to utilize natural barriers etc. I can trust that area I have cleared and enclosed will stay free.

I hope that there would be automated combat units. I could manufacture scout drones, guard units, attack units etc. and act as strategic commander and give them commands to gather information, guard areas, attack somewhere of defend positions. And decide for which branch of army I spend military investments, research and weapon manufacturing. Enemies should also be more rare and more clever and not huge horde of extremely stupid individuals running into death straight to the nearest turret.

But I understand that it will not happen and do not complain it. In any case Factorio is one of two best games ever for me. Other is Kerbal Space Program and I can not say which I like more. Factorio is interesting game, it have very high programming quality, good amount of vanilla content, huge amount of high quality modded content. It gives certainly extremely high amount of fun for the buck for building game enthusiasts but maybe I would recommend it with grain of salt for combat gamers. Factorio like production mechanism would be very good base for combat weighted game too and I hope there will be such games in future or better options to mod interesting enemies in Factorio.

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