are more ammo-based turrets comming?

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stylistic_sagi
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are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by stylistic_sagi » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:09 pm

I was wondering if it was planned that all ammo types would get their respective turret like the flamethrower got?

a shotgun turret
a rocket launcher turret
a cannon turret

right now the laser turret seems to be the best effective turret and the usual ammo turret is hardly rewarding.
Having more ammo based turret would open the gate for more difficult biter settings to be tried out and to enhance the logistic challenges to distribute all the new types of ammo.
It would be awsome if combining diffrent turret types would be the best defence as it would also give the biggest logistic challenge.

on the side a bit off topic it would also be nice early on to have a way of automizing the reparation of turrets.
For example if a belt would bring repair packs a certain type of insterter could repair your stuff and you can automize it before you have acces to construction robots.


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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by Cribbit » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:01 pm

That's going to be something you get from mods. The mods in this game go really in depth into things.

Personally, I like how Industrial Revolution handled a lot of combat changes. I went in expecting some cool crafting changes, also got fun turrets.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by stylistic_sagi » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:29 pm

I'm only playing vanilla.

I was just wondering if they are planned for vanilla.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by Koub » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:35 pm

For what we know, no new turrets are planned.
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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by skydivertricky » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:36 pm

Standard ammo turrets have better damage output than laser when using uranium ammo, but shorter range. I use both on my defenses.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by netmand » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:21 pm

I would be happier if they would add circuit functionality to the turret i.e. measuring the ammo in it.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by Pi-C » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:32 pm

stylistic_sagi wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:09 pm
I was wondering if it was planned that all ammo types would get their respective turret like the flamethrower got?
Just some examples of mods that provide different turrets:
a shotgun turret
Combat by Samuel
a rocket launcher turret
Schall Ammo Turrets
a cannon turret
Cannon Turret

Also, you should give the Water Turret a chance. :-)
A good mod deserves a good changelog. Here's a tutorial (WIP) about Factorio's way too strict changelog syntax!

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by Pandrosos » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:06 pm

As far as I know no.

Something to consider is that at the moment each of the three defensive turrets has its strengths and weaknesses, each one requires different logistics to supply, none of them ever get obsolete, and combinations offer advantages over just using one. Adding more turrets would make that balance harder to maintain I think.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by stylistic_sagi » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:25 pm

Same goes for normal weapons right?

I think they will come eventually.

as for the balance i think we can all agree the laser turrets are currently far superior to the ammo turrets and artillery is very late game.

Even with the higher damage output the laser turrets have superior range and don't need resources. so they can be spammed like crazy without any logistical effort.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by astroshak » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:07 pm

Laser turrets do need resources : they need power. No power, no laser. At least regular turrets still work if your power runs out.

Unless you’re going solar, in which case the resource lasers need is land for the solar panels and accumulators, lasers need fuel in the boilers or nuclear fuel for the reactors. It is not directly fed to the laser, no - but they are resources that are ‘consumed’ by the laser turrets nonetheless.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by stylistic_sagi » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:48 pm

Yeah but it is supper easy to do and give no challenges.
I'm not saying the other turrets should be better, i just think that allowing more options is neat for gameplay.
Even with better turrets players will still use alot of laser because they are more convient to use.
only the harder to defend

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by Hannu » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:07 pm

stylistic_sagi wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:48 pm
Yeah but it is supper easy to do and give no challenges.
When you are at late game and build large defence walls lasers and gun turrets are as easy to build. You spam blueprints and bots make the hard job. You need roboports in any case for repairs, just add requester chest and inserters for turrets. Then you need a rail station to supply ammo (you plan it once and copy easily with blueprints), one train to circulate borders and line of assemblers to make ammo in your base. I use usually only gun turrets to get little bit more variety and action in my base.

Discussion about differences in their firepower is academic nonsense. Both turret types can easily handle all attacks in vanilla game and mods which have stronger enemies usually give stronger tiers of turrets too. Sometimes they get destroyed but you have reserves (maintained by supply train) and construction bots replace automatically destroyed units after fight. Material cost is quite negligible compared consumption of research.
I'm not saying the other turrets should be better, i just think that allowing more options is neat for gameplay.
If i remember correctly, for example shotgun ammo is made from same stuff with similar manufacturing process as machinegun ammo. Adding simple shotgun turret would not give real variety if there were no more changes. But there is not very much really different and interesting options in vanilla game's small set of resources. Devs want to keep vanilla game simple and straightforward and I agree with them. They keep the game also open for modding so that players who want more can get more interesting challenges. But there are so many wishes that it would be very impossible to fulfill them all or even small part of them. But everyone can get mod selection just for their own needs. If you have gone to the point vanilla feels too simple it is certainly time to take a look at rich world of mods.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by Premu » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:47 pm

Gun turrets have one siginificant advantage to laser, though:

The damage bonus is squared. They get the inreased damage from the bullets and the same procentual increase on top from the turret.

So if you have +100% damage researched, laser turrets will do double damge, while gun turrets will do 4 times the damage! It can get massive once you get to the later stages of the research.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by valneq » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:00 pm

Premu wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:47 pm
Gun turrets have one siginificant advantage to laser, though:

The damage bonus is squared. They get the inreased damage from the bullets and the same procentual increase on top from the turret.

So if you have +100% damage researched, laser turrets will do double damge, while gun turrets will do 4 times the damage! It can get massive once you get to the later stages of the research.
I thought gun turrets do triple damage with +100%: Base damage from ammo, +100% from ammo damage bonus, +100% from turret damage bonus. Makes triple damage. Gun turrets don't have any base damage.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by Premu » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:08 pm

I just double checked. In my new game where I have currently a 20% Bonus I have gun turrets loaded with standard ammo, doing a base damage of 5.

If it was just a 40% bonus overall, the effective damage would be 7. But it is 7.2 - which means the game first applies the 20% damage bonus for the ammo, giving you 6 damage, and then another 20% on top of the 6 points damage, leading to overall 7.2 instead of 7.

Of course, at these low numbers the effect is pretty low, but it gets crazy prett quickly.

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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by Koub » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:18 pm

valneq wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:00 pm
Premu wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:47 pm
Gun turrets have one siginificant advantage to laser, though:

The damage bonus is squared. They get the inreased damage from the bullets and the same procentual increase on top from the turret.

So if you have +100% damage researched, laser turrets will do double damge, while gun turrets will do 4 times the damage! It can get massive once you get to the later stages of the research.
I thought gun turrets do triple damage with +100%: Base damage from ammo, +100% from ammo damage bonus, +100% from turret damage bonus. Makes triple damage. Gun turrets don't have any base damage.
But these are two different researches. The bullet damage counts twice, and the turret damage once.
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Re: are more ammo-based turrets comming?

Post by valneq » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:46 pm

Koub wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:18 pm
valneq wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:00 pm
Premu wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:47 pm
Gun turrets have one siginificant advantage to laser, though:

The damage bonus is squared. They get the inreased damage from the bullets and the same procentual increase on top from the turret.

So if you have +100% damage researched, laser turrets will do double damge, while gun turrets will do 4 times the damage! It can get massive once you get to the later stages of the research.
I thought gun turrets do triple damage with +100%: Base damage from ammo, +100% from ammo damage bonus, +100% from turret damage bonus. Makes triple damage. Gun turrets don't have any base damage.
But these are two different researches. The bullet damage counts twice, and the turret damage once.
Which two technologies do you mean? I thought only Physical Projectile Damage is of interest here. [edit:] Oh, the infinite version for level 7+ gives 40% to ammo bonus, but 70% to turret bonus. I never took notice of this difference … [/edit]
Premu wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:08 pm
I just double checked. In my new game where I have currently a 20% Bonus I have gun turrets loaded with standard ammo, doing a base damage of 5.

If it was just a 40% bonus overall, the effective damage would be 7. But it is 7.2 - which means the game first applies the 20% damage bonus for the ammo, giving you 6 damage, and then another 20% on top of the 6 points damage, leading to overall 7.2 instead of 7.
Oh I see! That means the damage bonus from the turrets is multiplicative to the damage bonus of the ammo, resulting in a
[total damage] = [base damage of ammo] × [100% + bonus for ammo] × [100% + bonus for turret]
Where [bonus for ammo] and [bonus for turret] are actually identical and determined by the current level of the Physical Projectile Damage tech:
At level 5 it is 80%, resulting in a total damage of [base damage of ammo]×[324%]
At level 6 it is 120%, resulting in a total damage of [base damage of ammo]×[484%]

[edit:] As I realized later: starting from level 7, the damage bonus is 40% per level to ammo, and 70% per level to turrets [/edit]

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