Licensing and mod portal

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Caledorn
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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Caledorn » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:36 am

T1017 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:24 am
I want to add that I think we all agree on this, but the game right now is making it difficult for people who aren't knowledgeable about these things.

I'd also like to add that the reason I made the thread was to make it clear what is and what isn't ok to do. Because I really want to respect mod creators' wishes.
I fully agree - and in case someone hasn't understood why I have been posting my posts in the thread, this is exactly the reason for why I have gotten involved in the debate as well. Clarification for the purpose of respecting IP.
T1017 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:24 am
- I didn't expect the questions to be inflammatory,
- I didn't expect the answer to my questions to be this complicated
Legal matters, especially when they involve money (as they sadly usually do...), seem to have a knack for getting out bad things in people, as was also mentioned by a previous poster.
T1017 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:24 am
I would also add that the reason I used the word content creator to describe myself is because I am a content creator - I did in no way mean to imply that the people who are creating mods aren't - of course they are - but in the context of the sentence, I meant simply meant creators of streams and videos. (which I still believe was very clear from the context)
And since you bring this up, I would also like to clarify that this is exactly my interpretation of content creator too. Anyone who creates content - be it mods, video footage, photographs, paintings, music, movies, and so forth.
T1017 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:24 am
Wube will come up with a good solution, I am sure - they have been amazing so far on patching and improving stuff.
My guess as to the reason why everyone is getting so riled up is most likely because we all care about Factorio and the game's future. Which is a good thing :)
Indeed. :-)

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planetmaker
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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by planetmaker » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:23 am

Puh, I'm surprised and not surprised at the same time that a license debate hit the factorio community (as well). I'm always severely saddened by this as it usually only leads to suffering (which we already see here) - and later people leaving in anger. It's a field scattered in highly-explosives mines, sadly where people also quickly mis-understand eachother.

Let me share some thoughts and insights I gained from (many) similar debates in the OpenTTD community from several sides (developer, mod creator). The result over there is basically the same as we see here now: a mod portal where any mod author can upload, provided he agrees to the TOS (terms of service) which means to allows distribution of mods by the game. Players can download them, and one can even view the license ingame - which can be any license a mod creator cares to choose. And time and again I have to answer people asking to monetize on OpenTTD on Youtube etc: "yes, you may with default game, but check licenses of any add-ons you might use".

It's (not only) those times that I wish that the TOS for the mod portal also contained a phrase which grants any LetsPlayers, YouTubers etc to show the game with whatever mods and extensions they care to use - without asking questions. Yes, some of them make a living of them playing games, thus it's definitely commercial. Yet doing so, they do the game a favour as a whole, they produce free ads for everyone, the game, the mod(s) being used, the community at large even. It's IMHO quite detrimental when such usage is being limited and fragmented. Derivatives of the mods (source code wise) themselves is an entirely different subject and can be allowed or not... and is not subject to limits in the TOS.

Thus for me the lesson learnt is:
Mods which don't want to allow being used and presented in video and text in social should have the option disgree with Wube's TOS of the mod portal and thus NOT use it for distribution.. That keeps it clean and simple for everyone: everything I can download from Wube and inside Factorio is free to use by the same conditions for creation of derived content like Factorio itself. Everything else: download elsewhere.



Another point is monetization on mods themselves. There's two way I can see that happen:
* payed DLC, thus that a mod can only be downloaded after you churned over xx€ via PayPal or whatever. Pretty sure I'd not be happy to see such infrastructure within the core game, though.
* Link to mod page (which can offer extensive description and links to Patron, PayPal etc) and possibly even directly a donation button. Then I can donate to mod creators easily
Yet, both ways mean a lot of extra work on Factorio side itself for... probably moderate benefit.

Cheers,
planetmaker
Last edited by planetmaker on Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Deadlock989
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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:25 am

planetmaker wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:23 am
Another point is monetization on mods themselves.
Don't want it.

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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by DerGraue » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:41 am

planetmaker wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:23 am
Mods which don't want to allow being used and presented in video and text in social should have the option disgree with Wube's TOS of the mod portal and thus NOT use it for distribution.. That keeps it clean and simple for everyone: everything I can download from Wube and inside Factorio is free to use by the same conditions for creation of derived content like Factorio itself. Everything else: download elsewhere.
I like this. A simple solution for some unnecessary drama.

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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:51 am

DerGraue wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:41 am
I like this. A simple solution for some unnecessary drama.
Simple, sure. Might even kill the Discord drama which leaked out here because someone posted screenshots of a group conversation without asking anyone's permission. But it kills off all the options, features and convenience of using the mod portal, so it's a massive loss for modders who don't want their work to be used commercially.

Whoopee.

If that happens, I'm not going to bother skulking around the grey net hawking my mods from under a dirty raincoat, to be honest.

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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by gabberworld » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:00 am

one thing what i forget say, if make stream viewing as payable then this is fully commercial, donation self is not commercial so you really can't sue someone about that

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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by T1017 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:08 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:51 am
DerGraue wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:41 am
I like this. A simple solution for some unnecessary drama.
Simple, sure. Might even kill the Discord drama which leaked out here because someone posted screenshots of a group conversation without asking anyone's permission. But it kills off all the options, features and convenience of using the mod portal, so it's a massive loss for modders who don't want their work to be used commercially.

Whoopee.

If that happens, I'm not going to bother skulking around the grey net hawking my mods from under a dirty raincoat, to be honest.
I didn't quote anything you said and I only mentioned you because the FFF is what made people aware of the licensing to start a conversation at all.

I actually asked and got permission from Wally1169, Seyeght and the owner of the discord (KatherineOfSky) and I offered to blur names or quote instead of using screenshots. You are making accusations you have no grounds for.
It is a public discord, so anyone can access the channel and read the discussion, it's not something that was discussed behind closed doors.

It was never about you - it's about licensing and the mod portal.

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Deadlock989
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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:13 am

T1017 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:08 am
I didn't quote anything you said
Didn't say you did. You didn't ask everyone, though, did you.

It's still essence of drama. I'm a firm believer that what happens on streamer Discord, stays on streamer Discord. You could have made your point without trying to shame anyone.

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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Bilka » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:19 am

T1017 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:08 am
I actually asked and got permission from Wally1169, Seyeght and the owner of the discord (KatherineOfSky) and I offered to blur names or quote instead of using screenshots. You are making accusations you have no grounds for.
It is a public discord, so anyone can access the channel and read the discussion, it's not something that was discussed behind closed doors.
Pretty rude to ask others but not the person you're majorly quoting - me. Your post is all "Bilka said". I'd have been fine with it if you had asked nobody, but you asked everyone, except the person whose responses you're focusing on.

Behavior like that makes me want to stop interacting with the community. Anything I say in an inofficial discord not representing Wube suddenly becomes official when it works for people; completely ignoring that I'm a separate person. I've left multiple streamer discords over time due to people missing that I'm me, not Wube; I guess this is just another one that I will leave now.
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Deadlock989
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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:20 am

What is a chatroom host thinking, giving "permission" to cut and paste chatroom conversations onto another forum, anyway? Does they own all the chat?

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Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Koub » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:32 am

Most of what had to be said on the topic has been said, and now people start calling each others names, indicating it's time to lock it.
Also, people have suggested a better integration of the modmakers will into the ingame mod browser :
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=75420
viewtopic.php?f=189&t=75380
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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