Licensing and mod portal

Post all other topics which do not belong to any other category.
Caledorn
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Caledorn » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:36 am

Optera wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:56 am
Streamers who make a living from it are not playing games for fun, they play to make a living.
When I worked as a systems engineer, I did not only do it to make a living. I did it because I loved doing it. That I was getting paid for doing it by my employer was fantastic. Yes, there are jobs out there that people do not enjoy or have fun in - but a statement that infers "all streamers that make a living for it are not doing it for fun but only for the money" strikes me as an odd generalisation to make of an entire group of people.

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5032
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Koub » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:36 am

[Edit] : did my post based on the wrong license. Will rewrite it if I can find the time, sorry Deadlock
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1278
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:37 am

Koub wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:36 am
... At the condition I give credit to Deadlock, add a link to the CC BY-NC 4.0
Wrong license.

Caledorn
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Caledorn » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:38 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:33 am
Caledorn wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:02 am
And Deadlock clearly has no intent of answering that question
I can't give you legal advice because I'm not qualified to do so.

If I were qualified to do so, I would probably charge you for it.

You are the "content creator". It's your job to understand what you're doing.
You are also the "content creator" (I don't know why you put quotation marks around that) of the mod. Are you actually saying outright that you have licensed your mod under a license that you do not understand the full extent of, and that it's my job to interpret your intentions of the license?

I am at a loss for words in that case.

In any case, I did not ask you for legal advice. I asked you for your personal opinion on whether you personally would consider that commercial usage.

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1278
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:42 am

Caledorn wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:38 am
You are also the "content creator" (I don't know why you put quotation marks around that) of the mod. Are you actually saying outright that you have licensed your mod under a license that you do not understand the full extent of, and that it's my job to interpret your intentions of the license?

I am at a loss for words in that case.
So I have to become a lawyer now, just to satisfy your needs, if I ever want to publish a mod.

Keep going. I reckon another 10 minutes of this and I'll officially regret publishing the mod in the first place.

PS. I put air quotes around "content creator" because it sounds so silly.
Last edited by Deadlock989 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Caledorn
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Caledorn » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:43 am

Koub wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:36 am
... At the condition I give credit to Deadlock, add a link to the CC BY-NC 4.0 in the vid description and don't make money with that particular video, aka I demonetize it, don't add my patreon/tipeee/youtip/paypal, and don't explicitely tell people to donate during the video.
That is more or less how I interpret it myself too (with the exception that those podcast people I linked on the Quora-link seems to think otherwise, and one of them being a CEO at least is an indication that proper legal counsel has been sought) - but it still doesn't answer the true core of the question. Since my channel is connected to a Patreon account, which means I make money from my YouTube channel through donations from people, even if I take those measures you mention here on any mod that is licensed under any form of CC NC license, am I violating the license?

Bilka
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 2133
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:20 am
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Bilka » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:44 am

Caledorn wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:38 am
You are also the "content creator" (I don't know why you put quotation marks around that) of the mod. Are you actually saying outright that you have licensed your mod under a license that you do not understand the full extent of, and that it's my job to interpret your intentions of the license?
Everyone understands the non-commercial clause differently, so seemingly nobody understands its full extent. Creative commons, the authors of the license, did a study on how people understand the non-commercial clause for that reason: https://mirrors.creativecommons.org/def ... report.pdf

One of the objectives of the study:
[T]o provide information and analysis that would be useful to Creative Commons and to others in understanding the points of connection and potential disconnection between creators and users of works licensed under Creative Commons noncommercial, or “NC,” licenses or other public copyright licenses prohibiting commercial use.
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1278
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:45 am

Caledorn wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:43 am
Koub wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:36 am
... At the condition I give credit to Deadlock, add a link to the CC BY-NC 4.0 in the vid description and don't make money with that particular video, aka I demonetize it, don't add my patreon/tipeee/youtip/paypal, and don't explicitely tell people to donate during the video.
That is more or less how I interpret it myself too
Maybe start by reading the right license?

Caledorn
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Caledorn » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:50 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:42 am
Caledorn wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:38 am
You are also the "content creator" (I don't know why you put quotation marks around that) of the mod. Are you actually saying outright that you have licensed your mod under a license that you do not understand the full extent of, and that it's my job to interpret your intentions of the license?

I am at a loss for words in that case.
So I have to become a lawyer now, just to satisfy your needs, if I ever want to publish a mod.

Keep going. I reckon another 10 minutes of this and I'll officially regret publishing the mod in the first place.
No, I have no interest personally in playing your mod - not on my own, and not in a stream or Let's Play. I am asking on behalf of people who are reading the thread who might want to stream or do a Let's Play, for the sake of the debate, so this has nothing to do with my personal needs. And as I explained earlier, it's not because I think your mod is bad - I think it looks absolutely amazing, and I am truly impressed by the number of hours and the monumental job you have done. I just don't enjoy the Factorio mods that are very complicated (i.e. I don't play Pyanodons or Angels either).

And if you dislike the debate, there is always the option of just ignoring it instead of "officially regretting" anything. Nobody is forcing you to read it, comment or to even spend a second of your time in here that you are complaining is taking away your time that you could spend playing the game instead in multiple posts. I asked you a question - but that does not entitle me to any response from you - and you keep avoiding the core question I have asked, so I can only assume you are not interested in responding to it, which is perfectly fine. The answer will to that broader core issue (how to interpret the CC NC license in regards to Patreon) will most likely come from someone else anyways. :-)
Last edited by Caledorn on Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Caledorn
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Caledorn » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:51 am

Bilka wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:44 am
Everyone understands the non-commercial clause differently, so seemingly nobody understands its full extent. Creative commons, the authors of the license, did a study on how people understand the non-commercial clause for that reason: https://mirrors.creativecommons.org/def ... report.pdf
Indeed! That is why I asked Deadlock directly about his interpretation about it, since that would be the simplest and most clarifying answer possible to get.

gabberworld
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by gabberworld » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:52 am

well factorio team can make ,
a function for users that they can sell mod or get free, and also get little profit from them self too at your selling if they want.
that is they right todo.

unity engine and some others make this way, allows customers sell they products at they web page

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1278
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:53 am

I mean, you couldn't make it up.

People, who have set up an account and maybe even a contract with an online streaming platform, and who have also set up an account and a contract with another company that lets people give them donations of literal money (in return for taking a cut of it), said donations clearly and without doubt in return for doing the streaming things on the aforementioned streaming platform, who now profess to actually not be able to tell whether they are actually making money or not.

The license CC BY-NC-ND 4.0 allows you to use the mod for non-commercial purposes. If there is even the slightest flicker of doubt in your mind that what you are doing is for a commercial purpose, either get legal advice, or don't use the mod.

That's my last freebie for you.

Caledorn
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Caledorn » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:59 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:53 am
I mean, you couldn't make it up.

People, who have set up an account and maybe even a contract with an online streaming platform, and who have also set up an account and a contract with another company that lets people give them donations of literal money (in return for taking a cut of it), said donations clearly and without doubt in return for doing the streaming things on the aforementioned streaming platform, who now profess to actually not be able to tell whether they are actually making money or not.

The license CC BY-NC-ND 4.0 allows you to use the mod for non-commercial purposes. If there is even the slightest flicker of doubt in your mind that what you are doing is for a commercial purpose not, either get legal advice, or don't use the mod.

That's my last freebie for you.
Thank you for actually answering my question on your interpretation of the license vs Patreon.

I am bemused by your constant need to use sarcasm and belittlement of others in your statements, but if that's the way you enjoy addressing your fellow peers, then I shall not stand in your way. I wish you the best of luck with your continued work on mods and other projects, and will continue to applaud you and other mod makers, streamers, let's players, etc as a fellow content creator. :-)

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1278
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 am

Caledorn wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:50 am
No, I have no interest personally in playing your mod - not on my own, and not in a stream or Let's Play.
So you're just interested in grilling random people on the internet about their legal interpretion of your own day job.

If you don't want to play my mod, what was the Spanish Inquisition for?

Caledorn
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Caledorn » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:15 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 am
Caledorn wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:50 am
No, I have no interest personally in playing your mod - not on my own, and not in a stream or Let's Play.
So you're just interested in grilling random people on the internet about their legal interpretion of your own day job.

If you don't want to play my mod, what was the Spanish Inquisition for?
No - I'm interested in figuring out how to interpret the CC NC license, in regards to Patreon and voluntary donations, since there are wildly different opinions on the matter all over the place if you Google it.

There was no "Spanish Inquisition" (why do you keep using all these sarcastic and belittling remarks? Is it really neccessary to treat people like that?). I asked you one simple question about how you interpret donations to a content creator's channel in it's entirety if any content showing off your mod was demonetised fully. That took multiple posts from you, with continued sarcasm and belittlement, until you finally decided to respond to it with yet another sarcastic post. But at least you responded, and clarified your stance on the question, which would have been much simpler if you had just responded initially with "Yes, I regard a channel that gets donations from Patreon as using the mod commercially." to which I would have responded "Thank you." and moved on with the generic debate.

Also keep in mind that this is not about your mod. Your mod instigated the debate, but the title of this thread is "Licensing and mod portal". You seem to take this personally, while it is anything but. This applies to every single mod released on the Factorio mod portal that is released under any variant of the CC NC license, and that is why the debate keeps going - because for any content creator that does streaming or recording of footage that includes such mods, it is crucially important that we:

1) Get a generic clarification for the CC NC variant licenses in regards to voluntary donations made to a content creator, be that a mod author or a video footage creator.
2) Failing that; Get to see the license of a mod inside the game, so we know that we can avoid installing a CC NC licensed mod at all for online footage.

Edit: YouTube is not my day job. Please do not make assumptions about me that you have no idea about.

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1278
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:22 am

Caledorn wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:15 am
No - I'm interested in figuring out how to interpret the CC NC license
Again, wrong license. Get it right. Your career as a "content creator" might depend on it.

48 hours of personal attacks, harrassment and ridicule from the "streaming community" and all its lovely "followers" warrants a smidge of sarcasm, I'd say.

Maybe sarcasm is part of my "content"? I'm certainly better at it than I am at being a lawyer. I told you I wasn't qualified to give you a fully correct legal interpretation of your work in the context of non-commercial licenses, but you kept on asking me anyway, decorating it with your cheeky little smiley face.

I'm 99% certain the license button will appear in the in-game mod browser, the same way it does on the mod portal, within a matter of weeks or even days. It won't actually change the stark reality of what you've all been doing for years, but it might help the drama go away, or at least back to all those chatrooms where it belongs, so I for one fully support it.
Last edited by Deadlock989 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

T1017
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by T1017 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:24 am

Optera wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:49 am
Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:44 am
Ignorantia juris non excusat, I think said someone said literally 2000 years ago.
Indeed.
I'm also consultant for Windows and you'd be surprised (or perhaps not) how many businesses up to 200 employees run incorrectly or non licensed software. If MS paid me for reporting, I'd be rich by now.

I can fully understand no one wanting to read that unreadable legalese. But if you are self employed you run a business and have to read and comply to that crap.
I want to add that I think we all agree on this, but the game right now is making it difficult for people who aren't knowledgeable about these things.

I'd also like to add that the reason I made the thread was to make it clear what is and what isn't ok to do. Because I really want to respect mod creators' wishes.
It was never meant as a discussions of the morals of strict licenses - just how strict they could theoretically get and what repercussions that could mean for someone who is as clueless as I was two days ago.
My original post was apparently worded in a way that made some people feel negatively about my position, but I tried to write in a way that wasn't from a "side"
T1017 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:53 pm
Please note that this post is not about discussing the morals of anything - it's about clarification and a bit of PSA :)
Obviously (as pointed out several times) it was written from a place with absolutely no understanding on the subject.
The loaded part of the op was written like it was because I felt Bilka (Factorio staff) was rude, dismissive and couldn't answer a question about how the licenses applied if you only used the in-game mod browser.
It felt natural to ask on the official forums.

- I didn't expect the questions to be inflammatory,
- I didn't expect the answer to my questions to be this complicated

It had nothing to do with mod creators - If the way it functions is that the mod creators can write their own license (which I learned quickly that it was) then that's their prerogative. Like it or not.
I would also add that the reason I used the word content creator to describe myself is because I am a content creator - I did in no way mean to imply that the people who are creating mods aren't - of course they are - but in the context of the sentence, I meant simply meant creators of streams and videos. (which I still believe was very clear from the context)

Wube will come up with a good solution, I am sure - they have been amazing so far on patching and improving stuff.
My guess as to the reason why everyone is getting so riled up is most likely because we all care about Factorio and the game's future. Which is a good thing :)

Caledorn
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Caledorn » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:30 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:22 am
Caledorn wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:15 am
No - I'm interested in figuring out how to interpret the CC NC license
Again, wrong license. Get it right. Your career as a "content creator" might depend on it.

48 hours of personal attacks, harrassment and ridicule from the "streaming community" and all its lovely "followers" warrants a smidge of sarcasm, I'd say.

Maybe sarcasm is part of my "content"? I'm certainly better at it than I am at being a lawyer. I told you I wasn't qualified to give you a fully correct legal interpretation of your work in the context of non-commercial licenses, but you kept on asking me anyway, decorating it with your cheeky little smiley face.

I'm 99% certain the license button will appear in the in-game mod browser, the same way it does on the mod portal, within a matter of weeks or even days. It won't actually change the stark reality of what you've all been doing for years, but it might help the drama go away, so I for one fully support it.
*sigh* No. The NC part of the license is the only part that is relevant to this debate. The other variants of the specific license you have chosen to include in your particular mod is completely and utterly irrelevant to this debate.

Thank you, though, for choosing to let all your frustration, anger and hurtfulness out on me - I asked you a simple question, which would not require you to have any legal experience as it related to your personal interpretation of a simple question, and you treat me with a full vengeance as if I have personally slighted you and been both rude, nasty etc towards you, and as if I am the incarnation and avatar sent by the entire streamer and YouTube-community who thus deserve to be treated like I am a vile person by you. I am sorry if I have said anything at all to warrant this treatment by you - my smiley faces have not been "cheeky", and what I have written to you have been both polite and respectful, as it still is now.

User avatar
Deadlock989
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1278
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:30 am

Caledorn wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:30 am
*sigh* No. The NC part of the license is the only part that is relevant to this debate.
Oh, so you do understand it after all. Good-oh.

mmmPI
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Licensing and mod portal

Post by mmmPI » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:33 am

If my 2cts could help there you go, else just ignore :

I have received "academical training" as in "studying at school" stuff about legal aspect of IP, also advertising, from this my personnal feeling is that is very "political" /"lobbyistic", many differences in the details of specific licensing occured from political divergences between groups of people thinking about the same way, or about the same thing. Roughly "open-source-world" and "big-company-world".

Advertising include "public relation", it is also used to "sell an idea", which could be about what is intellectual property, or which could be a "political agenda".

Any field involve with intellectual property will have "sides" forming, defending their own interest, advocating it is the "common good", convincing others that they are right about it is "advertising" or "public relation".

Many platforms make money out of free stuff. In all kind of field, the free stuff brought in by nice people is usefull for the platform even if the person who brought it doesn't (want to )benefit from it.

From here comes a misunderstanding, the people doing it for free don't think/realise they are being somewhat "utilized" by the platform. Thus they might not consider doing something commercial. Similarly someone who makes documentary about animals on TV doesn't always realize that it is used to draw people in front of said TV to watch the ads and could feel like "raising awareness about endangered animals" ( which is obviously "good" right ? ).

Which is a "gray area" , the platform itself can have a well written ready-to-give speech for their favourite freelance worker, "you entertain people" which is obviously "good", ( here the trap), if you don't succeed the platform doesn't loose anything, and if you do suceed the platform takes part of the credit. ( many parallel can be drawn with steam , uber, self-employed teacher in contract with their school and so on).

Platforms voluntarily creates financial incentive for their "free-lance advertiser" to challenge the "gray area", ( baitclick videos in general or specifically the dude that got famous outside his country by putting videos of suicided person on youtube comes to mind).

This is a good marketing move from a platform point of view, you can argue you defend freedom of speech, which is arguing to continue making money on those and "changing the system to a more open and connected world" , you can do something for yourself and easily claim it is for "common good".

And also, very stronk, you make other people do it for you. ( As if everyone started to talk everyday about what they saw on TV so that TV channel would become more and more "bait-click" and sensationnalist).

And cherry on top of the cake, at the end of the day, you hire some lobbyst to explain how you should be in charge of regulating the field, since you have now become a major actor. So you get to write law proposals for politics that don't really care/can't be expert about the subject that is your income as a company. By that i mean that the big platforms " terms of use" are often stronger than law. ( or eventually become the law).

That could feel like a very pessimistic view, or biaised, and you don't have to trust my words, but think about it, if you are convinced the world is like that, i'm not saying it cannot be seen differently, just that it CAN BE and IS SEEN it the way i described it by many people.

Maybe that can help understanding the very opposite views that are expressed in the discussion.

Locked

Return to “General discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: akhilapriya