Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

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zOldBulldog
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Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by zOldBulldog »

Looking for the best chest setup for products coming out of my assemblers I tried a number of things and reached some strange conclusions. I'd love to hear what you use and why.

These are some configurations I tried to make the items produced available to the logistic network:

Passive Provider:
- CON: Does not receive items back from trash slots.

Buffer Chest:
- CON: Receives amount requested but no more. The rest goes to my bank of storage chests.

Passive Provider + filtered Storage Chest + Inserter from Storage to Passive Chest.
- PRO: Achieves the desired behavior: Receives up to a full chest of returned products and puts it back into the passive provider... up to the limiter level (not a problem since excess remains in the storage chest).
- CON: This is messy and not compact.

Storage Chest (filtered) + circuit from chest to the inserter feeding it, with condition set to the desired limit.
- PRO: Assembler is properly limited, by the inserter condition.
- PRO: Can receive returned items up to full chest.
- PRO: It is as compact as using a passive provider, while handling the returns.
- CON: If the filtered storage chest fills up items go to unfiltered storage chests. If unfiltered storage chests all fill up, overflow will go to filtered chests of other item types... polluting them (this seems like a bug to me, but I am not expecting a fix anytime soon). BAND-AID: Make sure to have sufficient unfiltered Storage Chests to handle any overflows.

In the rare scenario where you have more than 1 chest full of items, returning items will oveflow to your unfiltered chests. And if you exceed the capacity of unfiltered chests, then items will begin polluting the filtered chests (this seems like a bug to me, but I am not expecting a fix anytime soon as it can be avoided by having ).


CONCLUSIONS:
- Surprisingly, Buffer chests do not seem to be a good solution.
- Surprisingly, filtered Storage chest + a volume limited Inserter looks like the best answer.
- It seems like it would be nice to have either a new type of Buffer/Storage chest (no limit on requested item) or an option in Buffer chests to have a min/max requested quantity.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by DerGraue »

Just use a buffer chest, requesting a high amount of the items that the output inserter will put into them. Disable the output inserter if the item is over the desired min value by the logi network. No wire required.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by leadraven »

Steel chest.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by MeduSalem »

Wooden Chests.


Nah... to be honest I just use Passive Provider Chests and limiting the available slots to 1 to avoid overproducing items. Returned items go to my central storage area with filtered slots.

It is not worth it to make it academic.



The only case where I use Active Provider chests is in scenarios with multiple output sources of items due to different recipes giving said item etc to prioritize the bots to first consume the items from the active provider chest rather than the passive one to avoid Deadlock situations where a full chest might end up clogging the entire production line.

There are not many cases where this happens in Vanilla anyway... I think it only is necessary when doing the Uranium Processing to filter the random U235 here and there out of the otherwise much more common U238 and use that before the Kovarex Process would kick in to produce more U235... or otherwise you'd eventually stock up on random U235 and the Uranium Processing would clog and be prevented to produce more U238 if the U235 isn't taken out. And the same also with U238 when reprocessing the used fuel cells... there I am also using an Active provider chest for the U238 output of the fuel cell reprocessing so the bots take that first to ensure that the output chest of the reprocessing doesn't fill up and prevent used full cells from being reprocessed.

In mods that stuff happens more often... with recipes that recycle a certain input item and output it again as a byproduct... then I usually want the bots to take that recycled stuff over having to produce new items.


And buffer chests should only be used exactly for what they were designed... buffering items further away.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by Serenity »

Buffer chests work perfectly. Limited its content with the output inserter. Then request the maximum amount. So all the excess that ends up elsewhere is put back and the machine doesn't have to make anything new until it is used up

I don't use that for intermediates like circuits, but for end products. So when I build something and have belts, machines, inserters or rail left over I can dump it into the trash slots and the bots will put it back into the output chests

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by zOldBulldog »

Thanks for the comments.

Sounds like - in blueprints - I'll go for filtered Storage chests and controlling assembler to chest limits with the inserter conditions. It is a bit more work while creating the blueprint but no extra work when I place the blueprints and the wires come free. Buffer chests used the same way and with a high request number might do, but Storage chests are available sooner in games, no reason to use a nuclear bomb when a fly swatter will do :)

For other stuff it is more situation dependent.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by MeduSalem »

zOldBulldog wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:59 pm
Buffer chests used the same way and with a high request number might do, but Storage chests are available sooner in games, no reason to use a nuclear bomb when a fly swatter will do :)
Also don't forget that you might want to use a Buffer Chest somewhere far away, like for example supplying the defense with ammunition or repairpacks or whatever.

Even inside the factory there might be some situations where the distances are so long that you might want to consider backing the thing up with a local buffer chest to balance or bridge drops/spikes in output. As I have experienced it reduces the amount of local active bots considerably (20-30% sometimes) and requires less roboports if they can pick up stuff nearby instead of having to fly across the entire map to get it. Especially when they are dumb and don't wait until there are 4 items to pick up and already go there when there's only 1 and then fly around 3/4 empty.

If you'd be using them for output already then you can't use them elsewhere anymore because buffer chests can't deliver to other buffer chests.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by zOldBulldog »

MeduSalem wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:12 am
zOldBulldog wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:59 pm
Buffer chests used the same way and with a high request number might do, but Storage chests are available sooner in games, no reason to use a nuclear bomb when a fly swatter will do :)
Also don't forget that you might want to use a Buffer Chest somewhere far away, like for example supplying the defense with ammunition or repairpacks or whatever.

Even inside the factory there might be some situations where the distances are so long that you might want to consider backing the thing up with a local buffer chest to balance or bridge drops/spikes in output. As I have experienced it reduces the amount of local active bots considerably (20-30% sometimes) and requires less roboports if they can pick up stuff nearby instead of having to fly across the entire map to get it. Especially when they are dumb and don't wait until there are 4 items to pick up and already go there when there's only 1 and then fly around 3/4 empty.

If you'd be using them for output already then you can't use them elsewhere anymore because buffer chests can't deliver to other buffer chests.
Indeed. What you describe is the proper use of buffer chests.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by JimBarracus »

MeduSalem wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:07 pm
Nah... to be honest I just use Passive Provider Chests and limiting the available slots to 1 to avoid overproducing items. Returned items go to my central storage area with filtered slots.
I add a wireless condition for the inserter that takes the output from the assembler
[produced item] < 100

because of the priority (active, storage, buffer, passive) the bots take items from the boxes there are not more items in the logistic system than demanded.
no limited inventory on the passive provider chests.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by zOldBulldog »

I discovered a quirk in the way Anything is implemented in Factorio that makes the condition false when the chests empties... effectively permanently disabling your inserter.

So, avoid using Anything as a wildcard (as attractive as that might be in theory) and use the specific item signal that you are putting in the chest or Everything instead. That works correctly.

EDITED: Everything signal will work as a wildcard for x < N.
Last edited by zOldBulldog on Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by DerGraue »

zOldBulldog wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:06 pm
I discovered a quirk in the way Anything/Everything is implemented in Factorio that makes the condition false when the chests empties... effectively permanently disabling your inserter.

So, avoid using Anything/Everything as a wildcard (as attractive as that might be in theory) and use the specific item signal that you are putting in the chest instead. That one works correctly.
Seriously! If you post this much on the forums (which is fine) than at least READ what other people are writing!

In the other posts, I and other people have written several times that if you wire an empty chest to an inserter and set the inserter to "everything" < n, that it will work if the chest is empty.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by zOldBulldog »

DerGraue wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:54 pm
zOldBulldog wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:06 pm
I discovered a quirk in the way Anything/Everything is implemented in Factorio that makes the condition false when the chests empties... effectively permanently disabling your inserter.

So, avoid using Anything/Everything as a wildcard (as attractive as that might be in theory) and use the specific item signal that you are putting in the chest instead. That one works correctly.
Seriously! If you post this much on the forums (which is fine) than at least READ what other people are writing!

In the other posts, I and other people have written several times that if you wire an empty chest to an inserter and set the inserter to "everything" < n, that it will work if the chest is empty.
I had tested Everything < N before, several times and it had failed.

But I just went to retest (just before your post) and this time it worked. Not sure why. I was already headed to edit this post but you beat me to it.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by MeduSalem »

JimBarracus wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:10 am
MeduSalem wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:07 pm
Nah... to be honest I just use Passive Provider Chests and limiting the available slots to 1 to avoid overproducing items. Returned items go to my central storage area with filtered slots.
I add a wireless condition for the inserter that takes the output from the assembler
[produced item] < 100

because of the priority (active, storage, buffer, passive) the bots take items from the boxes there are not more items in the logistic system than demanded.
no limited inventory on the passive provider chests.
I used to limit the output also with an inserter condition checking the global contents of the logistic network and only output if that item is below a certain amount.

But and that is the annoying thing about it... when I copy-pasted stuff or even set up stuff freshly I often forgot to change the conditions to match the item the assembler is outputting... and then ended up with a chest full of junk I don't need.

So that is why I eventually also started to limit the output chest to 1 slot ontop of the inserter conditions... and then eventually stopped using inserter conditions entirely because I couldn't be bothered anymore since limiting the output chest slots to 1 serves its job and I just copy&paste the assembler, inserters and chests from nearby and only need to change the assembler recipe.

So a mixture of failures and laziness got me to where I am now. Kinda like life itself. :D

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by hale42 »

something that drove me nuts recently was bots didn't prioritize filtered storage chests over non filtered chests for the item in question.

I use a condition on the inserter to not overfill, a requester chest hooked up to my non-filtered storage area to request a specific item from them if it is present (then fill the passive provider chest from production)

If the bots would prioritize filtered storage in front of non filtered storage i could save a combonator in the setup.
I have tried to use a buffer anywhere in there but it doesn't work well

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by zOldBulldog »

hale42 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:02 pm
something that drove me nuts recently was bots didn't prioritize filtered storage chests over non filtered chests for the item in question.

I use a condition on the inserter to not overfill, a requester chest hooked up to my non-filtered storage area to request a specific item from them if it is present (then fill the passive provider chest from production)

If the bots would prioritize filtered storage in front of non filtered storage i could save a combonator in the setup.
I have tried to use a buffer anywhere in there but it doesn't work well
I make extensive use of filtered storage chests (I like them better than other options... so long as I'm careful) I believe that the behavior is as follows:

1) If the item is in no storage chests, it goes to the one(s) filtered for that item.
2) If a storage chest (filtered or not) has the item, the item goes there.
3) If a filtered chest fills up, items go to another filtered chest (if it exists), then to an unfiltered chest. But beware... once that happens (2) rules.

It is quite crazy and totally counter-intuitive. But it is what it is.

The good news is that you can plan for it and make things work.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by rcp27 »

I’m not clear why you reject the buffer chest. The only negative you state is that when the request is full the excess goes to other storage. If the request is set to “full chest”, then the excess will only go elsewhere if the chest is full, exactly the failure mode of all the solutions. I would think the obvious solution would be a buffer chest requesting a full load, and connect the production output inserter to the logistics network to only work if the minimum level of the item you want is not met. Items in buffer chests are counted on the logistics network, so the inserter will never fill the chest, and every item of the desired sort will end up there until the chest is full.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by zOldBulldog »

rcp27 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 10:23 am
I’m not clear why you reject the buffer chest. The only negative you state is that when the request is full the excess goes to other storage. If the request is set to “full chest”, then the excess will only go elsewhere if the chest is full, exactly the failure mode of all the solutions. I would think the obvious solution would be a buffer chest requesting a full load, and connect the production output inserter to the logistics network to only work if the minimum level of the item you want is not met. Items in buffer chests are counted on the logistics network, so the inserter will never fill the chest, and every item of the desired sort will end up there until the chest is full.
Not rejecting it. Just not necessary since you can do the same thing with a filtered Storage chest *much* earlier in the game.

I much prefer setting things up once and forgetting them than having to upgrade and redesign at different stages of the game.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by Theikkru »

I use the filtered storage and passive provider combo, but I don't feed one directly into the other because I instead integrate with belts and bussing. I use a ([priority]filtered storage) & (assembler output) ―[splitter]→ (to bus) & (passive provider) belting arrangement to redistribute output and recycle trash evenly across both the bus and the network, so the system won't back up unless both the network and the bus are saturated with a given item.

In general, I think the best way to go involves trashing/recycling with filtered storage, because as others have pointed out, there may be more appropriate uses you'll want the buffer chests (and their priority hierarchy) for. I've found that the weirdness caused by items in unfiltered storage is pretty easily minimized if you follow 3 rules to keep your factory tidy:

① Don't slack! Set up recycling for EVERYTHING you produce as soon as you start producing it. If you integrate into your production lines (e.g. the splitter setup I use above), it only takes a few blueprint modifications and a couple of extra clicks when you're setting up the 1st line for a new product, and it'll save you a lot of headaches later.

②Auto-trash everything you can. There are plenty of items you should never be lugging around yourself once you're as far along as a logistics network (like sulfur, science, raw minerals, plastic, or the pistol) and plenty more you can place sane limits on (fuel of choice, ammo, copper wire, etc.), so once you get your first trash slots, sit down and run through all the game items.

③Set up and maintain an overflow area of 4~10 unfiltered storage chests (these should be the only ones in your main network), a few passive providers, and an active provider. Keep the storage chests empty! If items are showing up in them, that means either you didn't set up recycling for that item (slacker!), you forgot to set the filter on the recycling chest, or your system is saturated with that item. In the last case, dump those items into the passive providers (so bots won't bring any more to the overflow), and periodically feed batches of them to the active provider to be recycled.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by rcp27 »

zOldBulldog wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 10:32 am

Not rejecting it. Just not necessary since you can do the same thing with a filtered Storage chest *much* earlier in the game.

I much prefer setting things up once and forgetting them than having to upgrade and redesign at different stages of the game.
Certainly the “lower tech requirement” is a valid concern, although the initial discussion never made mention of it, and by including the buffer chest option at all, implied that it was not an issue.

There is another benefit of a buffer chest over a filtered storage chest: it can pull items out of general storage. Suppose I have a filtered storage chest for yellow belt with free space for 1k belt, and I tear up 2k belt and drop them on the logistics system. 1k goes to the filtered storage and 1k goes to general storage. If I then take 500 yellow belt out of the filtered storage, I have 500 free space in the filtered storage, and another 1k belt still sitting in general storage. With a buffer chest, the logistics bots will take 500 belts out of general storage and move it to the buffer chest.

This ability to pull items out of general storage while still making them available to the network makes them particularly useful in a recycling/upgrading system. If I use a buffer chest as both the output to the red belt machine and the input to the blue belt machine, with the output inserters set eithe by connection to the logistics network or by wire to the chest to only work below a threshold that is lower than the buffer chest request, when I use some blue belt, the logistics system will pull any red belt out of storage and supply the blue belt machine with it in preference to making new red belts, all while still having red belt available for logistics requests.

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Re: Chest type for assembler output. What do you use and why?

Post by Theikkru »

rcp27 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:10 am
[...]the logistics system will pull any red belt out of storage and supply the blue belt machine with it in preference to making new red belts, all while still having red belt available for logistics requests.
Not quite accurate. The red belts in the buffer will only be available for player and construction requests; they won't be available to the logistic network as a whole (e.g. other buffers, requesters without the box checked). That's the problem with using buffers to double as recycle and output.

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