Why i will never play 0.17

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ownlyme
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Why i will never play 0.17

Post by ownlyme »

0.17 cons:
- the new quickbar is utterly unusable, i'd rather have something i just crafted added to my quickbar than 100 hotkeys that i don't even need because there's a pipette tool
- almost every graphic they touched has gotten worse:
-- enemies look sterile
(( -- laser tower projectiles don't glow at night anymore)) -> Kinda fixed.. Actual fix: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/laser_fix
-- belts overlap other belts they are feeding (ruining the 3d effect)
-- gamma setting has been changed, making everything brighter than before
- removed modding features:
-- scalable property of gui elements
-- ability to use progress bars as pixels or changing their style at all (only width & color can be changed right now..)
- new science pack recipes broke my old factories
- the removal of mining tools ruined the survival game feeling of the game
- when they renamed the internal, not to the player visible, ids of the science packs it felt like they just said "fu" to all modders.
edit: aswell as other internal names, like replacing "player" with "character" literally everywhere and some technology names
for them it might be more consistent, but for modders updating their mods for both 0.16 and 0.17 this is a bit of a hassle.

0.17 pros:
- research queue
- better fluid dynamics (no need to put a pump after each underground pipe anymore)
- ability to change gui sprites after their creation
- new animation prototype, with ability to procedurally rotate it
- stickers can consist of only 1 picture
- simple-entity :: RenderPlayer
- Modder's QoL:
-- find_entities_filtered has now "radius" parameter
-- LuaStyle:: margin properties
-- Entity_died event has "ghost" parameter
- biters can open allied gates
- generally slightly better biter AI
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Last edited by ownlyme on Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:57 am, edited 12 times in total.
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My requests: uiRelative||Grenade arc||Blueprint allies||Creeps forget command/ don't get removed||Player Modifiers||textbox::selection||Better Heat IF||Singleplayer RCON||tank bug w/ min_range >= projectile_creation_distance

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Ranakastrasz
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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by Ranakastrasz »

ownlyme wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:25 pm
0.17 cons:
- the new quickbar is utterly unusable, i'd rather have something i just crafted added to my quickbar than 100 hotkeys that i don't even need because there's a pipette tool
I can't disagree entirely. While it is technically an improvement in some places, the sheer user unfriendliness of it ruins any advantage. It needs to still behave mostly like it used to, with click and drag and so on, no middle mouse button involved, and yes, autofiling with new crafts should be an option.

That said, it is NOT entirley unsuable. Took me about 5 minutes to understand, and I can ignore it now. I also only use the X hotkey to swap the two rows, and the middle mouse button which is mandatory because reasons.
- almost every graphic they touched has gotten worse:
-- enemies look sterile
-- laser tower projectiles don't glow at night anymore
-- belts overlap other belts they are feeding (ruining the 3d effect)
Enemies look creepy.
Laser tower glow is a bug, which will be fixed as soon as the game stops breaking from critical bugs, and they can work on the lighting issues that all showed up.
Belt 3d illusion, yea. The end should be tilted up or something. That said, I think it reinforces the 3d illusion, given belts appear to be on top of other belts.
- removed modding features:
-- scalable property at gui elements
-- ability to use progress bars as pixels (they now have minimum dimensions)
Yea, adding restrictions to modders is never a good idea, unless it is for literal security reasons. Still haven't fixed cluster effect chain to allow one sub-effect.
- new science back recipes broke my old factories
Yea, every time any recipe changes people complain. Feel free to use 0.16 until 0.17 is stable, and start a new game or something.
0.17 pros:
- research queue
- better fluid dynamics (no need to put a pump after each underground pipe anymore)
- ability to change gui sprites after their creation
- new animation prototype, with ability to procedurally rotate it
Research queues, haven't tried, can't say much yet.
Fluid dynamics don't exist yet, sorry. That got pushed back because something broke.
No idea what the other two are about, but I haven't touched modding for 0.17 yet.
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by _Attila_ »

We can't mod a solution to completely fix the problems with the quick bar, because there is no event we can use on a mouse click within the quick bar.
However, I have a mod that will add newly hand crafted items to the quick bar.

Attila's QuickBar Mod
Attila's QuickBar Mod - Auto-links hand crafted item to first free quickbar slot if not already linked.
Attila's Signals Mod - Alternate signals to use in same circuit as standard signals.
Attila's Zoom Mod - Modifies zoom functionality.

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by JimBarracus »

ownlyme wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:25 pm
- the removal of mining tools ruined the survival game feeling of the game
90% of my deaths are due to trains
loosing your last pickaxe was just annoying
usually not worth to automate it and waste a supply slot for that

its not meant to be a survival game
-no hunger
-no fatigue
just fish to heal yourself

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by urza99814 »

Yeahh, I even thought the quickbar sounded like a good idea in some of the FFF posts... But in practice I haven't used it at all, instead I'm now opening up my inventory every time I need to grab something. My toolbelt was always auto-filled from crafting so I didn't have to think about it. I don't really want to spend time reorganizing the stupid thing every time I research something new... That's way too much manual effort; this game is supposed to be about automation! :)

And my inventory is filling up with empty blueprints lately too... There's too many buttons and I never found a good place to map the "drop item" command. Never needed it before. But now it keeps spawning new blueprints when I pick one off the quickbar and I have no way to get rid of them xD

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by Terukio »

First thing I did was set up my toolbar in 0.17 to the most common things I use in the 4 slots.

Other tabs for less common things.

It took a few minutes to get used to, but if you take the time to set it up initially it becomes super useful.
toolbar.JPG
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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by Maddhawk »

ownlyme wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:25 pm
0.17 cons:
*SNIP*
- new science back recipes broke my old factories
- the removal of mining tools ruined the survival game feeling of the game
- when they renamed the internal, not to the player visible, ids of the science packs it felt like they just said "fu" to all modders.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and generally I try to refrain from commenting on others. After all, you are providing feedback for the developers and, regardless if I agree with the opinions that are given or not, that can only be a good thing. That said, these three items made me pause and go, "Really?".

Game is in a beta state and officially still early access. It hasn't even reached a 1.0 state yet. This means that fundamental design changes are not only something we should all be on the look out for, but should never ever be surprised to see. As such, when core recipes change, instead of complaining, you should be happy that new design challenges await you and your next factory. Overall, I am actually quite happy to see the changes in question. Especially those for High Tech Science.

I don't get this whole "survival game" fad that seems to be going on right now. This certainly isn't a survival game. It is a game of logistic and production challenges with a massive dollop of puzzle solving, creative freedom, exploration, and endless growth. After launching your first ever rocket, the game is entirely up to you make of it what you will. For myself, the pickaxe was an annoyance that I am glad is gone. I understand some loved how they felt it contributed to the games atmosphere and the player as a builder, but as things go it was a very poor representation for the nature of the game.

Considering the team has embraced modding as one of its core pillars since--I'm guessing since day 1--the beginning, this sorta harkens back to my first point. Game isn't even 1.0 yet and changes are to be expected. One should roll with them and adapt. If you cannot do what you want to do, then let the devs know what it is you are trying to do and perhaps it will be something they can either add to the game, or perhaps it was an unseen bug that came with 0.17 that they can fix.

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by _Attila_ »

Terukio wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:03 pm
First thing I did was set up my toolbar in 0.17 to the most common things I use in the 4 slots.
The problem with this approach is that as a new player - or player of a new mod - one has no idea what the best arrangement of the items will be.
So, lots of moving items around in the quick bar and lots of searching in the inventory for items not yet linked to the quick bar.

The quick bar has some nice features, but it needs to be more user friendly when it comes to having new items appear there and being able to easily move items around (move without having to unlink old slot and swap two slots).
Attila's QuickBar Mod - Auto-links hand crafted item to first free quickbar slot if not already linked.
Attila's Signals Mod - Alternate signals to use in same circuit as standard signals.
Attila's Zoom Mod - Modifies zoom functionality.

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by Maddhawk »

_Attila_ wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:14 pm
Terukio wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:03 pm
First thing I did was set up my toolbar in 0.17 to the most common things I use in the 4 slots.
The problem with this approach is that as a new player - or player of a new mod - one has no idea what the best arrangement of the items will be.
So, lots of moving items around in the quick bar and lots of searching in the inventory for items not yet linked to the quick bar.

The quick bar has some nice features, but it needs to be more user friendly when it comes to having new items appear there and being able to easily move items around (move without having to unlink old slot and swap two slots).
This process of moving things around has a name. It is called "Learning". It is something people do naturally as they engage in new things. Furthermore, what is an optimal setup of bars for one player is not going to be the same for another. I use 3 bars now and none of them look even remotely like the one screen captured.

Once I figured out how to get 0.17 downloaded (I'm a Steam user) I wasn't use to items I make not showing up in my bars automatically either. However, I got used to it. Once having made that adjustment, I don't even notice it anymore. As far the general user unfriendliness, I will agree that the drag and drop feature of the old bars needs to come back. In this case, dragging an item to the bar should set the filter and we should be able to drag and drop filter settings from one button to another just as if they were actual items. That would solve the only real issue it has now.

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by sathill »

For me quickbar its best change in 17 overall.
One biggest pro its that player can see total number of items. Like 432 yellow belts or so. In old quickbar max was one stack. Big pro for that change.
Its better design for sure no doubt about that. There are other reasons also. Like locking some items in old quickbar lock that slot and if player wish to take absurd ammount of materials(landfill) for lets say outpost building it was either locked slots or complete messing with it. No more.
Overall 17 its big plus. For me only con its that i lose some fps (not ups) for strange reasons. After game restart its again 60 fps in the same spot.

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by BlueTemplar »

Never say never !
Maddhawk wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:02 pm
I don't get this whole "survival game" fad that seems to be going on right now. This certainly isn't a survival game. It is a game of logistic and production challenges with a massive dollop of puzzle solving, creative freedom, exploration, and endless growth. After launching your first ever rocket, the game is entirely up to you make of it what you will. For myself, the pickaxe was an annoyance that I am glad is gone. I understand some loved how they felt it contributed to the games atmosphere and the player as a builder, but as things go it was a very poor representation for the nature of the game.

Considering the team has embraced modding as one of its core pillars since--I'm guessing since day 1--the beginning, this sorta harkens back to my first point. Game isn't even 1.0 yet and changes are to be expected. One should roll with them and adapt. If you cannot do what you want to do, then let the devs know what it is you are trying to do and perhaps it will be something they can either add to the game, or perhaps it was an unseen bug that came with 0.17 that they can fix.
Why are you focusing on survival games? There are a LOT of game types that have inventory tools / melee weapons that can be swapped out !
The main issue is not that the pickaxe and mining hardness were removed from vanilla - it's that the modding support for them has been removed too !
(And what is even harder to understand to me, that there are more complicated and computing-heavy mechanics that have been kept, at least "under the hood", with mod support in mind : power efficiency being a prime example.)

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by Maddhawk »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:15 pm
Never say never !
Maddhawk wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:02 pm
I don't get this whole "survival game" fad that seems to be going on right now. This certainly isn't a survival game. It is a game of logistic and production challenges with a massive dollop of puzzle solving, creative freedom, exploration, and endless growth. After launching your first ever rocket, the game is entirely up to you make of it what you will. For myself, the pickaxe was an annoyance that I am glad is gone. I understand some loved how they felt it contributed to the games atmosphere and the player as a builder, but as things go it was a very poor representation for the nature of the game.

Considering the team has embraced modding as one of its core pillars since--I'm guessing since day 1--the beginning, this sorta harkens back to my first point. Game isn't even 1.0 yet and changes are to be expected. One should roll with them and adapt. If you cannot do what you want to do, then let the devs know what it is you are trying to do and perhaps it will be something they can either add to the game, or perhaps it was an unseen bug that came with 0.17 that they can fix.
Why are you focusing on survival games? There are a LOT of game types that have inventory tools / melee weapons that can be swapped out !
The main issue is not that the pickaxe and mining hardness were removed from vanilla - it's that the modding support for them has been removed too !
(And what is even harder to understand to me, that there are more complicated and computing-heavy mechanics that have been kept, at least "under the hood", with mod support in mind : power efficiency being a prime example.)
I'm not? I didn't bring up survival games, other guy did. The issue of the pick axe removal has been debated a lot since the intention to do so was announced. I supported its removal then and I support it now. However, I also supported that modders should be able to add it and other tools to the game if so desired. I agree with that.

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by GlassDeviant »

ownlyme wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:25 pm
0.17 pros:
- better fluid dynamics (no need to put a pump after each underground pipe anymore)
You never needed to put a pump after each underground pipe.

The new fluid dynamics are a bigger problem than solution.

I do agree however on the new quickbar, especially the use of the MMB to clear slots. The MMB on the mouse wheel was the stupidest thing ever invented in regards to mouse technology. It is a pain in the rear to click it without scrolling accidentally up or down.
- GD

Sorry if my posts are becoming difficult to read, my typing ability is rapidly deteriorating due to a nerve disorder. I try to clean them up before posting but don't always get every last typo.

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by GrumpyJoe »

GlassDeviant wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:44 pm
It is a pain in the rear to click it without scrolling accidentally up or down.
while i agree with you on the fluid stuff ( i like your response to your own thread, especially the waterfall analogy), i really have to ask:
is your mouse 10 years old, or did it come with a completed sticker bonus card from your local coffee shop? :P

personally, i was happy with 0.16
out of the 2 major things of 0.17 so far, GUI and fluid mechanics

the former feels good, altho i needed some time to get used to the quickbar and especially with BP behaviour, which i still regularly screw up

The "fluid rework" isn´t fully completed (if the "fluid prevention" hasn´t anything to do with it, its not even partially released yet) and like you, I REALLY hope they take some of the latter back.
Because even tho my initial thought was its dumbing the game down for people that are not careful when building, all it does is annoy me and i really hope its fans begin to wonder "why cant i set this reciepe here, its not mixing anything anyway" too

As for the OP, as far as versions go, you could go back as far as 0.12.stable, at least on Steam.
Just give it a chance.
My first 60min of 0.17 mostly consisted of me saying "F..K, WHYYY?????", continuosly. Eventually you´ll find someone you could take about what awesome base you built, if you weren´t actally 1 year behind and he has no idea what you talking about.
To me, at least for now, it even has made vanilla fun again

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ownlyme
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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by ownlyme »

i'm constantly using 0.17 because i'm writing mods...
but honestly, even after 100-200 hours my quickbars are still empty.
might have something to do that i constantly load different saves to test different stuff
i think the 0.16 quickbars were totally fine, you were able to lock the buttons if you wanted and you had more hotkeys easily accessible with the shift keys, i personally dont need more than 2 bars anyway
i might have changed that the bars had 6 hotkeys on each side instead of 5, but any number beyond that is not comfortable to use anymore..
They could have bound the quickbar switching to ctrl instead of shift so i don't see *any* improvement over the 0.16 bars..
mods.factorio.com/user/ownlyme
My requests: uiRelative||Grenade arc||Blueprint allies||Creeps forget command/ don't get removed||Player Modifiers||textbox::selection||Better Heat IF||Singleplayer RCON||tank bug w/ min_range >= projectile_creation_distance

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by Gummiente27 »

urza99814 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:48 pm
Yeahh, I even thought the quickbar sounded like a good idea in some of the FFF posts... But in practice I haven't used it at all, instead I'm now opening up my inventory every time I need to grab something. My toolbelt was always auto-filled from crafting so I didn't have to think about it. I don't really want to spend time reorganizing the stupid thing every time I research something new... That's way too much manual effort; this game is supposed to be about automation! :)

And my inventory is filling up with empty blueprints lately too... There's too many buttons and I never found a good place to map the "drop item" command. Never needed it before. But now it keeps spawning new blueprints when I pick one off the quickbar and I have no way to get rid of them xD
You can right click blueprints in the inventory and delete them in the openend menu. If you pick up a blueprint from the new tool bar at the right, use the keybind for put item out of my hand to inventory will delete the blueprint instead.

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by Dreepa »

Pick axe removal is good.

Now just put manual crafting speed and manual mining speed upgrades into the research tech-tree, so that the speed can be increased through the main game loop progression (science) and it's perfectly conclusive.

(Unless it's already in there, haven't checked).

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by ownlyme »

steel pickaxe is now a research, but still..
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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by matt3224 »

I wanted to chime in and say that i tried to use 0.17 quickbar but even after a fair few weeks i'm finding myself using the regular inventory over the quickbar or that the quickbar is empty.

Perhaps there can be an option to autofill the quick bar like 0.16?

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Re: Why i will never play 0.17

Post by SuicideJunkie »

Only having 5 hotbar slots instead of 10 takes some getting used to.

I end up having to use the main inventory a lot since I havent organized things yet.
(Everything other than inserter, belt, power pole, underground & splitter)

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