The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Bilka » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:53 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:46 am
Problem not solved: I research titanium axe and *poof* instant mining speed upgrade. I haven't made a single titanium plate, which is not a trivial thing in Bob's, and maybe I haven't even mined a single piece of rutile ore.
Make the research need titanium, ez :lol:
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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by nosports » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:36 am

Just to add some to the confusion ;)

As i have no problem when the axes are removed from the game.


I have always thought of the different axes as a mk1-mk2-mk3 axe like the assemblers/miners in factorio.
It is a faint hint in early game that you can upgrade almost everthing and for starters the axes feels like very important, just for not digging out ores or chopping down trees with bare hands.

So in my humble opinion I would let the axes just as they are – they are just not that important in the middle/later game when there is no need for wood anymore and they neither bury or neclect the core of the game for me…..

If we are needed to bring down the trees I would opt to an additional building / chest (combination) with robots which could slowly (hell currently they chop through like there are just some staws instead some full grown old mans trees) chop down trees in a given range around, checking off the last thing in factorio which could not very well automated

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Oktokolo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:41 am

I doubt, that they will port Factorio to any mobile platform. You could try playing it on a convertible to get the touch experience. But that probably is as mobile as it will ever get.
Factorio should mostly be playable with touch input, but to support the common Android and iOS tablets or even phones, they would have to make their engine run well on ARM SOCs...

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Bilka » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:51 pm

I just provided a solution for your problem: You say that you want the axe to take titanium, I tell you how to make it take titanium. If having a solution for your problem is a joke to you, I must sincerely wonder why you keep asking for one.
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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by xfir01 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:55 pm

Just rename the research "Personal Tool Optimization".

You're not carrying around a pick axe. Instead, you've got an omni-tool, extractor, and micro-fabricator.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Jap2.0 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:21 pm

Bilka wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:51 pm
I just provided a solution for your problem: You say that you want the axe to take titanium, I tell you how to make it take titanium. If having a solution for your problem is a joke to you, I must sincerely wonder why you keep asking for one.
Yeah, uh, just rebalance your entire tech tree. Sounds like an easy solution to me.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:28 pm

Bilka wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:51 pm
I just provided a solution for your problem: You say that you want the axe to take titanium, I tell you how to make it take titanium. If having a solution for your problem is a joke to you, I must sincerely wonder why you keep asking for one.
It's a more appropriate question here than it is in its original context. Can anyone guess which technology enables the axe of the new material, including the steel axe in vanilla? Anyone? No?? Well, it's the technology that teaches you how to refine the material the axe is made of! So, if you needed steel to research steel, or titanium to research titanium, you're screwed!

Bilka, it's so obvious that I actually believed you were not being serious! Really, Bilka, I thought your post was a joke. Did anyone else think Bilka was seriously proposing to brick the game in such a straightforward manner?

At this point, I'm thinking about downloading every file I can from the store and mod sites because if the development team really has reached a state to be offering solutions like this, the servers could crash at any moment. Bilka and posila are starting to really scare me!

(Oktokolo, Factorio is a horrendously inappropriate game for phones; go play Reactor Tycoon for about thirty seconds if you don't believe me ;) )

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Oktokolo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:03 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:28 pm
Can anyone guess which technology enables the axe of the new material, including the steel axe in vanilla?
Just add a separate tech for enabling the upgrade.
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:28 pm
Did anyone else think Bilka was seriously proposing to brick the game in such a straightforward manner?
You should not expect anyone to do what you want if you use that style of communication without also holding a gun to his head (i would suggest changing the style of communication instead of obtaining a gun though).
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:28 pm
(Oktokolo, Factorio is a horrendously inappropriate game for phones; go play Reactor Tycoon for about thirty seconds if you don't believe me ;) )
Well, you linked that video that was all about Blizzcon anouncing a version of Diablo for Android and iOS.
And it could fit on convertibles and highend tablets (but is not likely to happen anyway).

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:59 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:03 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:28 pm
Can anyone guess which technology enables the axe of the new material, including the steel axe in vanilla?
Just add a separate tech for enabling the upgrade.
That amounts to crafting the axe as a science kit and throwing it in a lab. How exactly does that make more sense than putting the axe back as it was and setting the wear rate to zero?
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:28 pm
Did anyone else think Bilka was seriously proposing to brick the game in such a straightforward manner?
You should not expect anyone to do what you want if you use that style of communication without also holding a gun to his head (i would suggest changing the style of communication instead of obtaining a gun though).
If I were close enough to do that, I would be begging him to go to the hospital instead 'cus he literally needs his head examined. I mean really, it's that crazy. Read it again, the guy proposed a circular research dependency and confirmed it as a serious solution when I reacted to it as a joke. I'm hoping the next thing he does is see my current reaction and go like, "Holy :shock: that's not what I meant, what I was trying to say was [something sensible], sorry about the confusion." When someone goes that insane, how the hell am I supposed to react?

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:14 am

nosports wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:36 am
Just to add some to the confusion ;)

As i have no problem when the axes are removed from the game.
...
So in my humble opinion I would let the axes just as they are – they are just not that important in the middle/later game when there is no need for wood anymore and they neither bury or neclect the core of the game for me…..
Thanks for your support :)
If we are needed to bring down the trees I would opt to an additional building / chest (combination) with robots which could slowly (hell currently they chop through like there are just some staws instead some full grown old mans trees) chop down trees in a given range around, checking off the last thing in factorio which could not very well automated
I was astonished during my last run through the portal as to how many mods do exactly that. I think there were like three or four. Brb, I'll see if I can link an example...

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/WoodHarvester
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Lumberjack

Your basic low-speed wood assembler greenhouse is the more popular way of automating wood production and I think just about every modder and his pet fox has done one (that's my subtle shoutout to bobingabout's avatar.)

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Oktokolo » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:42 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:59 am
When someone goes that insane, how the hell am I supposed to react?
That is the thing with insaneness: If you are affected yourself, the only way to detect that is using occams razor. When on the highway and all the other cars drive on the wrong side...
You might drive on the right side - but it is not very likely.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by QGamer » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:57 am

xfir01 wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:55 pm
Just rename the research "Personal Tool Optimization".
You're not carrying around a pick axe. Instead, you've got an omni-tool, extractor, and micro-fabricator.
Bilka wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:51 pm
...You say that you want the axe to take titanium, I tell you how to make it take titanium. If having a solution for your problem is a joke to you, I must sincerely wonder why you keep asking for one.
I may be misinterpreting this but...
Once you complete the titanium research, then research a separate "personal tool optimization 3" research. You need titanium to research the axe upgrade, you don't need titanium to make titanium.

Perhaps make the mining speed research only unlockable if you've crafted, say, 50 titanium plates. That would fix the issue, wouldn't it?

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:11 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:59 am
That amounts to crafting the axe as a science kit and throwing it in a lab. How exactly does that make more sense than putting the axe back as it was and setting the wear rate to zero?
Yeah, I'm quoting myself. I really don't have much to add to that discussion. Frankly, I think it would be interesting if someone could implement Tinker's Construct in Factorio and then put the resulting tools on construction bots and/or mining drills.
Oktokolo wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:42 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:59 am
When someone goes that insane, how the hell am I supposed to react?
That is the thing with insaneness...
Not relevant. It's a circular dependency, a failure of logic that would be insane even if I'm the only person in the world not doing it. (And if that were the case, I would be quite dominant in the market for video games since I'd be the only dev in the world able to design a tech tree.) Also, it's spelled "insanity" ;)

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Oktokolo » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:55 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:11 pm
It's a circular dependency, a failure of logic that would be insane even if I'm the only person in the world not doing it.
That is how i would implement it:
1. The player has to research the tech enabling advanced miner entities wich can mine new shiny ore.
2. Next the mined new shiny ore might be smelted into new shiny plates, wich are required as ingredient for the new shiny speed upgrate research (or a new shiny science pack wich is needed for the new shiny speed upgrate research), wich enables the player and/or miner entities to mine stuff faster (but new shiny ore would still only be mineable by advanced miner entities as you can't change mining category restrictions at runtime).

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:12 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:55 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:11 pm
It's a circular dependency, a failure of logic that would be insane even if I'm the only person in the world not doing it.
That is how i would implement it:
1. The player has to research the tech enabling advanced miner entities wich can mine new shiny ore.
2. Next the mined new shiny ore might be smelted into new shiny plates, wich are required as ingredient for the new shiny speed upgrate research (or a new shiny science pack wich is needed for the new shiny speed upgrate research), wich enables the player and/or miner entities to mine stuff faster (but new shiny ore would still only be mineable by advanced miner entities as you can't change mining category restrictions at runtime).
Yours is not a circular dependency. The quote you're actually responding to is:
featherwinglove wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:59 am
Oktokolo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:03 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:28 pm
Can anyone guess which technology enables the axe of the new material, including the steel axe in vanilla?
Just add a separate tech for enabling the upgrade.
That amounts to crafting the axe as a science kit and throwing it in a lab. How exactly does that make more sense than putting the axe back as it was and setting the wear rate to zero?
That certainly resolves the circular dependency, but I would not find the gameplay as satisfying as building an axe and then researching related speed upgrades for automated mining. That might not be for you, but it is for me and Rythe, and the game would suffer very little for allowing us to turn that back on if we'd like to.

Edit: I would like to emphasize that the spot in the GUI currently occupied by the tool should be retained to indicate manual mining speed and keep the weapon cluster in a regular shape. If that has become academic, you have probably changed the vanilla GUI too much.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by abregado » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:28 am

OBXandos wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:31 am
Keep the pickaxe, remove the tedium from it.
And this is what we did. Sorry for staying out of the discussion for so long. If you want to discuss how to solve this with mods, please help me find a solution over here:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=64142&p=391680#p391680

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Maddhawk » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:18 am

factoriouzr wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:14 pm
bobucles wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am
If you look at my suggestion I'm not talking about a manual upgrade planner. I'm talking about an automatic one where you define what you want to upgrade (same as upgrade planner) but the robots automatically upgrade parts of your factory they pick if you have enough items in stock. This way eventually everything will be upgraded automatically.
There's no easy way for a factory to know exactly what you want upgraded or when. Sometimes things are meant to be NOT upgraded such as weaved belts or burner inserter backups or the like. Sometimes an upgrade needs a physical overhaul such as steel furnaces to electric furnaces. Other times an upgrade process can stall a factory for hours, like stuffing tier 3 modules into everything. The job of deciding what and when to upgrade is best left to player brains. That's more fun anyway.
As I said, you define upgrade yellow belt to red for example and then ALL yellow belt will be replaced by red belt over time. This is the feature I want. If you have some entities you don't want to upgrade, you don't put them in the upgrade list. Most entities in the game are straight up improvements in every way from previous tiers, so there is absolutely no reason not to upgrade them if you want. Upgrading them won't break anything.
I am with bobucles on this one. This is an idea I do not want to see in the game's core. If you want this, then make a mod of your own that does it. As bob said, there are times when you want to keep some belts as yellow belts forever. You do not want them upgraded. So having a system that slowly begins to automatically replace all yellow belts with red or blue belts becomes a problem. Furthermore, I also agree with bob that a big portion of the fun of the game comes from doing the upgrades manually yourself. It is clear you do not find this fun. That is fine, again make a mod that provides the feature you want.

@Featherwinglove and others who think like him.
I see a problem with the train of thought you folks have. Y'all clearly like the game. Y'all clearly greatly enjoy the modded game. Most, if not everyone, disappointed in the removal of the pickaxe and the changes to mining coming with 0.17 are all playing a heavily modded version of Factorio and greatly prefer it over the base game experience

The problem that arises is that y'all enjoy the modded experience so much so that y'all believe that Wube not only should, but must develop the game core explicitly for the betterment of the modded game.

I disagree. Wube must develop the game's core engine for the stand alone NO MODS experience. This is to establish the game's baseline from which all new players learn the game's fundamental mechanics from. It is from this perspective that these changes come from. From this initial starting point, the community can then modify the game and tailor it to each persons own custom desires and tastes. Yes, this does man some mods, probably many mods, will require significant work to keep them up to date as Wube moves the base game towards a final version.

This is a fact that every mod maker should be keeping very much in the forefront of their brains as they build their mods. Mod makers who do not do so are engaging in significant short sightedness. If there are certain mods you enjoy so much that you want to see them stay around for a long time to come, then reach out to their authors and ask them how you can help. Perhaps you can help the modder repair and/or update the mods code. Or perhaps you can donate to them so they can afford to set aside more time to maintaining the mods you enjoy so much for the newer version of the game.

Y'all shouldn't be pestering Wube to stop moving their game towards completion simply because a change comes to the base game that causes problems with your favorite mod.

--Now, the OP made a very passionate opening post as to what the pickaxe meant to him. I can see how he came to feel that way. My own experience with the game is so much more limited so I do not feel the same. To me, the removing of the pickaxe is a good thing. But, I can understand why others would like to see it stay. Especially, how people coming from Minecraft would like to see it stay. I have never played Minecraft by the way.

This is where, once again, modding comes back into the scene. If you want the pickaxe back in 0.17. Make a mod. If you are like me and do not have the skills to do so, then find someone who can and ask them what can you do to support them to make such a mod. I believe some of the Factorio devs are even already looking at a way to do so based on the thread linked above.


TL;DR - Stop complaining about changes cause it breaks your favorite mod. Instead look at each change from an unmodded, new player perspective and then base your judgement on a change from that viewpoint. As for mods, find your favorite mod authors and ask them how can you help and support them to keep their mods updated for future versions of the game.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by vedrit » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:38 pm

Maddhawk wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:18 am
*snip*
+1, so many +1
I consider my Factorio game decently modded, but none of them touch mining. Why? Because the vanilla game is fine as it is in that regard. I don't need super massive insane mining platforms that will dig up 100 ore/second in a 12x12 area, especially not with the infinite productivity researches.
Once I place my first electric miner, wanna know how much I think about the pickaxe?
I'll give you a hint: It's less than 'at all'.
It's only once it runs out that I am reminded that it existed at all, though usually by that point I've got bots started so the pickaxe is even less useful.

Modders want the pickaxe to stay in the game should possibly reconsider their choices. What benefits does having a pickaxe that requires both research AND crafting add to the game? If the new tool unlocks at the same time as the material processing (E.G. steel), then why force the player to craft it? It only adds tedium and annoyance for something the player never pays any mind to, and less and less as they progress.


On a small side topic, perhaps the slot where the tool went could instead be used as a dedicated spot for repair packs? Somehow, they're always moving out of their spot on my toolbar, even when I lock a slot to them

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:15 pm

Maddhawk wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:18 am
@Featherwinglove and others who think like him.
I see a problem with the train of thought you folks have. Y'all clearly like the game. Y'all clearly greatly enjoy the modded game. Most, if not everyone, disappointed in the removal of the pickaxe and the changes to mining coming with 0.17 are all playing a heavily modded version of Factorio and greatly prefer it over the base game experience

The problem that arises is that y'all enjoy the modded experience so much so that y'all believe that Wube not only should, but must develop the game core explicitly for the betterment of the modded game.

I disagree. Wube must develop the game's core engine for the stand alone NO MODS experience. This is to establish the game's baseline from which all new players learn the game's fundamental mechanics from.
I see your point, and you really have done the best job of defending it so far, a much better job than the developers have, but they don't actually address the countercurrent concerns of the core audience; I'll try to keep them brief:

1. The axe has been in the game for six years, and bear in mind that we were left very much with the impression that they could not be modded back in for the better part of two months. For the players who have been with the game the longest, and those tend to be the speed runners, modders, and mod developers, they remain a fundamental.

2. FFF#266 basically overturned the mod API in other ways too, and this is not such a good deal for Wube if they're saving themselves just a few hours by removing things from the game to waste hundreds of mod developer hours to put them back in for players who want to keep them. It is more economical to mod them out of the "base mod" (the vanilla game's Lua side) than remove support for them from the engine. In doing the latter, they came across as lazy and greedy, and I believe this hitherto (as far as I know) unspoken impression expressed itself as an undercurrent of confusion and concern in the more diplomatic forms of backlash, and when flippantly dismissed as it has been, open rage. Mod developers work on this game for free, and there is going to be a visceral reaction when Wube renders all that work useless.

3. Wube basically gets all its advertising for free from the community. Keeping the dedicated audience who does all the free work of modding the game and creating Youtube LPs, Twitch streams, and Steam reviews at least somewhat happy is a fair trade, and much cheaper than a AAA-style marketing campaign.

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