The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by factoriouzr » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:14 pm

bobucles wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am
If you look at my suggestion I'm not talking about a manual upgrade planner. I'm talking about an automatic one where you define what you want to upgrade (same as upgrade planner) but the robots automatically upgrade parts of your factory they pick if you have enough items in stock. This way eventually everything will be upgraded automatically.
There's no easy way for a factory to know exactly what you want upgraded or when. Sometimes things are meant to be NOT upgraded such as weaved belts or burner inserter backups or the like. Sometimes an upgrade needs a physical overhaul such as steel furnaces to electric furnaces. Other times an upgrade process can stall a factory for hours, like stuffing tier 3 modules into everything. The job of deciding what and when to upgrade is best left to player brains. That's more fun anyway.
As I said, you define upgrade yellow belt to red for example and then ALL yellow belt will be replaced by red belt over time. This is the feature I want. If you have some entities you don't want to upgrade, you don't put them in the upgrade list. Most entities in the game are straight up improvements in every way from previous tiers, so there is absolutely no reason not to upgrade them if you want. Upgrading them won't break anything.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by factoriouzr » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:15 pm

factoriouzr wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:14 pm
bobucles wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am
If you look at my suggestion I'm not talking about a manual upgrade planner. I'm talking about an automatic one where you define what you want to upgrade (same as upgrade planner) but the robots automatically upgrade parts of your factory they pick if you have enough items in stock. This way eventually everything will be upgraded automatically.
There's no easy way for a factory to know exactly what you want upgraded or when. Sometimes things are meant to be NOT upgraded such as weaved belts or burner inserter backups or the like. Sometimes an upgrade needs a physical overhaul such as steel furnaces to electric furnaces. Other times an upgrade process can stall a factory for hours, like stuffing tier 3 modules into everything. The job of deciding what and when to upgrade is best left to player brains. That's more fun anyway.
As I said, you define upgrade yellow belt to red for example and then ALL yellow belt will be replaced by red belt over time. There is no guessing involved. ALL things you configure will be upgraded. If you want more control perhaps you can set these settings per logistics network, but having a global one for all networks is good enough for me. This is the feature I want. If you have some entities you don't want to upgrade, you don't put them in the upgrade list. Most entities in the game are straight up improvements in every way from previous tiers, so there is absolutely no reason not to upgrade them if you want. Upgrading them won't break anything.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Zavian » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:19 am

factoriouzr wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:15 pm
As I said, you define upgrade yellow belt to red for example and then ALL yellow belt will be replaced by red belt over time. There is no guessing involved. ALL things you configure will be upgraded. If you want more control perhaps you can set these settings per logistics network, but having a global one for all networks is good enough for me. This is the feature I want. If you have some entities you don't want to upgrade, you don't put them in the upgrade list. Most entities in the game are straight up improvements in every way from previous tiers, so there is absolutely no reason not to upgrade them if you want. Upgrading them won't break anything.
Doing that blindly will break any belt weaving setups. In addition there is often no need to upgrade the output from things like blue circuits/yellow/purple/space science.

Even if I am upgrading everything, I still want the upgrade done in stages. First the belts from the mines/ore unload stations to the copper/iron/steel smelters, then the belts from the copper and iron smelters to their high volume consumers (eg things like green circuits). Probably next will the the belts from green circuits to their high volume consumers, then maybe plastic and red circuits etc. It is pointless to upgrade the output belts from the smelters, if you don't have enough ore or enough smelters to be able to produce more than a yellow belt of output.

As Bobunles said
bobucles wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am
The job of deciding what and when to upgrade is best left to player brains. That's more fun anyway.
(For people who don't care about upgrade order, then you could probably just drag the upgrade planner selection tool over the entire factory, and let the bots do things in whatever order they choose).

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by factoriouzr » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am

Zavian wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:19 am
factoriouzr wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:15 pm
As I said, you define upgrade yellow belt to red for example and then ALL yellow belt will be replaced by red belt over time. There is no guessing involved. ALL things you configure will be upgraded. If you want more control perhaps you can set these settings per logistics network, but having a global one for all networks is good enough for me. This is the feature I want. If you have some entities you don't want to upgrade, you don't put them in the upgrade list. Most entities in the game are straight up improvements in every way from previous tiers, so there is absolutely no reason not to upgrade them if you want. Upgrading them won't break anything.
Doing that blindly will break any belt weaving setups. In addition there is often no need to upgrade the output from things like blue circuits/yellow/purple/space science.

Even if I am upgrading everything, I still want the upgrade done in stages. First the belts from the mines/ore unload stations to the copper/iron/steel smelters, then the belts from the copper and iron smelters to their high volume consumers (eg things like green circuits). Probably next will the the belts from green circuits to their high volume consumers, then maybe plastic and red circuits etc. It is pointless to upgrade the output belts from the smelters, if you don't have enough ore or enough smelters to be able to produce more than a yellow belt of output.

As Bobunles said
bobucles wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am
The job of deciding what and when to upgrade is best left to player brains. That's more fun anyway.
(For people who don't care about upgrade order, then you could probably just drag the upgrade planner selection tool over the entire factory, and let the bots do things in whatever order they choose).
I think there is a point to upgrade everything. Belts go to assembly machines and out of assembly machines, when assembly machines get upgraded, you can supply more resources. This is just a simple example.

This is a game about automation, I like this feature of auto upgrading everything.

It's all about how we play the game, and everyone is different.

Your reasons for wanting to upgrade in stages are your preference, I have a different preference. I selectively upgrade some things, but I want the rest to be upgraded automatically as I described.

You also can't drag select everything in your factory as that will disable belts etc and stop production. If you don't have enough belts etc stored to upgrade your whole factory in one go (this is pretty much a guarantee), then your entire factory will shut off. This is a way to upgrade your entire factory automatically and incrementally as you have the resources without stopping production and shutting down your factory.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by bobucles » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:59 am

I want the rest to be upgraded automatically as I described.
What order should pieces be upgraded in? What are the choke points? What is priority for upgrading? If a factory starts upgrading junk at random, it's throwing away resources until every single choke in the production chain gets addressed. A pile of blue belts with one yellow belt is only as good as that yellow belt. A train station that has random inserter upgrades will easily become unbalanced and can screw up careful train network planning from the player.

No, an upgrade system based on RNG is not a good system and it absolutely does not belong as a default. If you want that the best option is to take an upgrade planner and cover your entire base in one swoop. That will do the exact same thing.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Zavian » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:44 pm

I can fully understand some people wanting to upgrade everything. Back when I played multiplayer I saw that too many times. (Provided nothing breaks and the mines/smelters/resource sources can actually feed the new faster belts/assemblers then I have no objection. Unfortunately too often players seem to think that if the server is short on something that they will upgrade just that section, or just the bus, without noticing that real problem is not enough mining or smelting to feed the existing production facilities).
factoriouzr wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am
I think there is a point to upgrade everything. Belts go to assembly machines and out of assembly machines, when assembly machines get upgraded, you can supply more resources. This is just a simple example.
I'm going to take issue with your example. In many cases, (including some I specifically pointed out in my previous post), even after upgrading assembly machines, (and even after adding 4 speed modules), you can still leave many of your belts as yellow belts.

Take a yellow science setup. 14 (lvl 2) assemblers making 1.5 yellow flasks per second. To feed that you need 0.75 batteries and 0.75 speed modules per second, 30 (lvl 2) assemblers making 2.25 blue circuits per second, and 66 (lvl 2) assemblers making red circuits, and one yellow belt of copper (11.25 per second) just to feed the copper wire assemblers for yellow science itself. Overall yellow science is consuming roughly 5 yellow belts worth of green circuits.

Now upgrade all those assemblers to lvl 3 assemblers, and further boost their output by adding 4 lvl 3 speed modules to every assembler. Now you can make 7.5 yellow science per second (production has increased by a factor of five, but a yellow belt is still fine). You need 3.75 batteries and speed modules per second, (one lane of each on a yellow belt is still plenty). 11.25 Blue circuits (again a yellow belt is fine). But you need 1.5 blue belts of copper for the copper wire assemblers for yellow science, and overall yellow science is using over 8 blue belts of green circuits. So unless your initial design planned for this upgrade, you probably need to do some redesigning to keep these upgraded assemblers fed with copper and green circuits.

Whilst I understand that some people want to just upgrade everything, from my point of view the only reason to do so is "because the player wants to". There is no gameplay reason to do so, and those resources can often be better spent elsewhere.

Now making that "just upgrade everything" approach easy is fine, but it shouldn't be done in a way that breaks existing setups (eg by default it should not break belt weaving setups, nor burner inserters feeding steam generators). It also shouldn't prevent players who want more control from being able to say, "just upgrade those mines/smelters/stations or whatever". To me that means upgrade everything functionality needs to be optional, and off by default. (Personally I think it is better game design to encourage the player to make decisions about what they should upgrade. That also suggests that the default behaviour should not be "just upgrade everything").
factoriouzr wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am
You also can't drag select everything in your factory as that will disable belts etc and stop production.
I can't think of any reason why the devs should make a vanilla upgrade planner function that way. From my perspective, bots should be able to upgrade the belt in place, without it needing to mark it for deconstruction first.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by dood » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:03 am

Well this all hinges on us agreeing that this is a "betrayal" in the first place for which you gave no compelling reasoning as to why it would be.
Exaggerated, flowery tales are all nice and well but they don't really make good arguments.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by sarcolopter » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:55 pm

Zavian wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:44 pm
I can fully understand some people wanting to upgrade everything. Back when I played multiplayer I saw that too many times. (Provided nothing breaks and the mines/smelters/resource sources can actually feed the new faster belts/assemblers then I have no objection. Unfortunately too often players seem to think that if the server is short on something that they will upgrade just that section, or just the bus, without noticing that real problem is not enough mining or smelting to feed the existing production facilities).
factoriouzr wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am
I think there is a point to upgrade everything. Belts go to assembly machines and out of assembly machines, when assembly machines get upgraded, you can supply more resources. This is just a simple example.
I'm going to take issue with your example. In many cases, (including some I specifically pointed out in my previous post), even after upgrading assembly machines, (and even after adding 4 speed modules), you can still leave many of your belts as yellow belts.

Take a yellow science setup. 14 (lvl 2) assemblers making 1.5 yellow flasks per second. To feed that you need 0.75 batteries and 0.75 speed modules per second, 30 (lvl 2) assemblers making 2.25 blue circuits per second, and 66 (lvl 2) assemblers making red circuits, and one yellow belt of copper (11.25 per second) just to feed the copper wire assemblers for yellow science itself. Overall yellow science is consuming roughly 5 yellow belts worth of green circuits.

Now upgrade all those assemblers to lvl 3 assemblers, and further boost their output by adding 4 lvl 3 speed modules to every assembler. Now you can make 7.5 yellow science per second (production has increased by a factor of five, but a yellow belt is still fine). You need 3.75 batteries and speed modules per second, (one lane of each on a yellow belt is still plenty). 11.25 Blue circuits (again a yellow belt is fine). But you need 1.5 blue belts of copper for the copper wire assemblers for yellow science, and overall yellow science is using over 8 blue belts of green circuits. So unless your initial design planned for this upgrade, you probably need to do some redesigning to keep these upgraded assemblers fed with copper and green circuits.

Whilst I understand that some people want to just upgrade everything, from my point of view the only reason to do so is "because the player wants to". There is no gameplay reason to do so, and those resources can often be better spent elsewhere.

Now making that "just upgrade everything" approach easy is fine, but it shouldn't be done in a way that breaks existing setups (eg by default it should not break belt weaving setups, nor burner inserters feeding steam generators). It also shouldn't prevent players who want more control from being able to say, "just upgrade those mines/smelters/stations or whatever". To me that means upgrade everything functionality needs to be optional, and off by default. (Personally I think it is better game design to encourage the player to make decisions about what they should upgrade. That also suggests that the default behaviour should not be "just upgrade everything").
factoriouzr wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am
You also can't drag select everything in your factory as that will disable belts etc and stop production.
I can't think of any reason why the devs should make a vanilla upgrade planner function that way. From my perspective, bots should be able to upgrade the belt in place, without it needing to mark it for deconstruction first.
you don't need to worry about these numbers if you go by belt ratios; for example, if you want one belt of X color of yellow science, then you need one belt of batteries, 3 belts of blue circuits, 1 belt of speed modules, 30 belts of wires (or 15 belts of copper) - as long as the belt colors are the same for input and output. So for raw materials, that'd be 169 belts of copper, 88 belts of iron, and 7 belts of plastic (4 belts of coal (I always round up)); except that the recipe produces 2 packs, so it's actually 85 / 44 / 2, plus sulfuric acid and petroleum gas for the circuits and batteries. You can find the right number of assembling machines you need to fill the belts by picking a belt color, machine tier, and module layout, and doing some multiplication. (yellow science, Mk2, red belt, no modules : mk2 = 3/4 speed. 2 packs = 14 = 7 sec / pack, mk2 = 3/28 packs / sec. red belt = 80/3 packs / sec. (80/3)*(28/3) = 249 mk2 base assemblers for one red belt of yellow science, rounding up.) Of course for the fluids, the number of pipelines you need will depend on the belt color you're targeting. So, when you go from yellow to red belts, you just upgrade everything in place, and there's no need to tear anything up; you just extend out your assembler lines to saturate the faster belts

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:55 am

Rythe wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:49 am
And now, that simple iron pickaxe that formed the basis of your journey can be done away with. Your factory cares for it not, and best that you no longer remember when you were once the master and not the slave.
Hmm... ...I think finally someone has put into words that previously indecipherable feeling I get around the time I start building my first rocket, let out a big sigh, and restart the game.

In my favorite modpack so far (and it's pretty much a 100% certainty that my favorite modpack will never be built on 0.17 or later), Muddy Mountains, features the Mountains mod, and my favorite thing in 0.16 so far is the Diggy map. This means that the first step in a lot of my resource primary access is clearing the crap off the resource patch so that I can put the mining machines down. It gives the axe a problem to solve, and also makes good use of the Bob's pickaxe lineage. This scratches a taming-the-wilderness itch. I doubt I would have been jumping up and down with excitement if I were Adam in Genesis 3:17-18, but is something I really like in my Factorio games. That's um - ...oh heck, it's not as easy to recover old deleted quote from OP, brb...
Klonan wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:11 pm
In the ancient times, you first had to create a wooden pick, to create a stone pick, to mine basic resources, to make iron, so you can make an iron pick. Yes... this was clearly Minecraft affecting our ideas. We identified soon, that this prequel of manual mining has nothing to do with the core of the game, and is an unnecessary distraction. The fact that it was the first thing the player had to do in the game was gravely affecting what new players thought the game is about. So we kept only the iron/steel pick to streamline things.
...and one of the first things I did was get a mod (Bob's ...um... Materials, I think) that adds in brass, cobalt, titanium and diamond (DIAMOND! wOOt!!!) pickaxes, and another mod (Mountains) that gives me plenty of excuses to use every last one of them...
Rythe wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:49 am
This was the raw, undiluted first taste of everything Factorio was expecting to become, slowly consumed by inching along a path where you built things to augment yourself. First directly by way of equipment (pickaxe before weapons and armor), then gently
"gently"? :roll:
expanding that out by way of buildings that did things you couldn't, then buildings that augment those manual tasks that formed your first sense of the world, then expanding out even further so that buildings helped buildings augment and automate those tasks you first mastered by hand (mining, crafting). It was the gentle expansion of your conscious mind outward into ever new possibilities.
What's this "gentle expansion" pizdec, blyat? Maybe he means in vanilla without my mod pack that makes the first hour in Don't Starve easier to survive.
I dislike research that has no associated item production because the thematic chain is research allows you to build new things which gives the player new/improved capabilities. It's a far stronger experience than generic number upgrades that work like magic in the background.
I see exactly where you're coming from, but one of the interesting things about Factorio is that it treats research in a significantly different way than most of the 4X games that I like so much: you don't just through money at research, you actually need to build the experiment packs and put them into the labs, which makes "work like magic in the background" type researched buffs seem a heck of a lot less like that in Factorio than in any other game I've played. I don't mind not having to craft the tool belt as an item separate from the research, for example, because feeding all that iron and copper to the assembly line and making the research kits and taking them to the labs feels so much like actually building the thing ...although turning copper and iron on a planet with no cows into Kuny's leather does seem a bit silly. Fortunately, I don't really mind impurities in such a system. I would, however, like equipment for modular armor to add the third row to the toolbelt instead of pure research.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by immatthu » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:00 pm

I agree completely about 'magic' research taking me out of the immersion, and feeling like pointless busywork.

Let me say that really the only thing that kept me going until I launched a rocket at 50 hours was cool things I wanted to experience.

First, it was a car and sub-machine gun. Then it was the tank, modular armor, power armor, exoskeletons, bots. I added a mod with helicopters (this badly needs to be in the base game).

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the journey every step of the way. Figuring things out and seeing them work was a lot of fun but I need a purpose and for me that purpose was always new game-play mechanics.

I'd really like to see many new mechanics such as those I mentioned but maybe 50 hours worth of content is good enough, I must admit.

Still, many more cosmetics and a way to beautify my factory. Hunger, farming, and temperature management would go a long way as well as new vehicles.

But whatever.. I see the roadmap and I think the game is pretty much done and was already one of the best games I've ever played.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by mrt144 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:01 pm

bobucles wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:59 am
I want the rest to be upgraded automatically as I described.
What order should pieces be upgraded in? What are the choke points? What is priority for upgrading? If a factory starts upgrading junk at random, it's throwing away resources until every single choke in the production chain gets addressed. A pile of blue belts with one yellow belt is only as good as that yellow belt. A train station that has random inserter upgrades will easily become unbalanced and can screw up careful train network planning from the player.

No, an upgrade system based on RNG is not a good system and it absolutely does not belong as a default. If you want that the best option is to take an upgrade planner and cover your entire base in one swoop. That will do the exact same thing.
I think the only sensible way to implement it would be 'first down, first upgrade' so your oldest placed structures are upgraded first. But even with that implemented it would hardly be graceful at specific points. As much as I would love an upgrade button I think it's something that would be hard to implement well.

If anything, a QoL adjustment I'd love to see is the ability to assign the same good to be made by 'like' buildings if you highlight several 'like' buildings. So if I select 5 Chemical Processing Plants and assign battery manufacture, whammo, those 5 Chemical Processing Plants are all making batteries now. If this is already implemented then I feel like a dunce. It's been such a small time waster to have to go to each assembly plant/chemical processing plant and manually assign what they build. Blueprints with prepopulated build assignments for the various plants is handy, but reaches it limit of handiness if you have to get specific with what you're building.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:05 am

immatthu wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:00 pm
Still, many more cosmetics and a way to beautify my factory. Hunger, farming, and temperature management would go a long way as well as new vehicles.
I think we're SOL when it comes to SOL. (Standing for, respectively, "S- :shock: outta luck" and Spice of Life, the mod for Minecraft.)
But whatever.. I see the roadmap and I think the game is pretty much done and was already one of the best games I've ever played.
Pretty much done. 0.17 is regressing in some important ways, I'm wondering if it would be more profitable for
bobingabout wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:29 pm
I'm just going to go sit in the corner and cry now...
to stop support of his mods for future versions of Factorio and instead extend them for 0.16. Especially since
AlienZoo23 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:10 am
This is a goodbye from me to FFF's, after several years of reading and enjoying. This FFF and the one early this year about bots vs belts have so soured me that the best thing is to just stop reading and stick with playing a version I can enjoy.
happened. I've begun work on one last Factorio modpack for 0.16, and I seriously doubt I'll ever build one for 0.17 because the axes are just too damned important. Ingredients counts and mining hardness are also extraordinarily important to my modpacks, the former because of mods that died with the old mods website (0.12 version) and the latter because Bob's. Those manufacturing-related 0.12 mods (along with no starting area option) are why I have a 0.12.35 modpack that I still play regularly. I also have it multi-site backed up because it is impossible to redo if I lose it.

At this point, I've stopped singing Wube's praises publicly and can no longer recommend Factorio to personal friends. The disconnect really is that bad.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Oktokolo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:02 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:05 am
Pretty much done. 0.17 is regressing in some important ways, I'm wondering if it would be more profitable for
bobingabout wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:29 pm
I'm just going to go sit in the corner and cry now...
to stop support of his mods for future versions of Factorio and instead extend them for 0.16.
Well, he probably wants to use the new fluid energy source, that he added to Factorio's code base and wich will be included in 0.17, in his mods. That version will also bring way more flexibility when it comes to energy sources and consumers in general...
The 0.17 Mod/Script changelog contains a ton of smaller improvements that alltogether make 0.17 pretty attractive for modders - whether they care about the non-mod-API game polishing or not.
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:05 am
I've begun work on one last Factorio modpack for 0.16, and I seriously doubt I'll ever build one for 0.17 because the axes are just too damned important.
Don't stop modding. You will not only miss the joy of using all the API enhancements of 0.17+. But all the players currently using your mods will be pretty sad too. They all would have to decide, whether they want all that new shiny stuff of 0.17+ or miss out on all of that to be able to keep using your mods wich would not be updated for newer game versions. That surely would be a heartbraking decision you would force on the Factorio player base.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Jap2.0 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:49 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:02 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:05 am
I've begun work on one last Factorio modpack for 0.16, and I seriously doubt I'll ever build one for 0.17 because the axes are just too damned important.
Don't stop modding. You will not only miss the joy of using all the API enhancements of 0.17+. But all the players currently using your mods will be pretty sad too. They all would have to decide, whether they want all that new shiny stuff of 0.17+ or miss out on all of that to be able to keep using your mods wich would not be updated for newer game versions. That surely would be a heartbraking decision you would force on the Factorio player base.
This. Do you really think stopping modding is going to solve the problem? At worst you'll add some good to a bad new version, and at best, all of this comes back, and you're ready for it.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:01 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:02 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:05 am
I've begun work on one last Factorio modpack for 0.16, and I seriously doubt I'll ever build one for 0.17 because the axes are just too damned important.
Don't stop modding. You will not only miss the joy of using all the API enhancements of 0.17+. But all the players currently using your mods will be pretty sad too. They all would have to decide, whether they want all that new shiny stuff of 0.17+ or miss out on all of that to be able to keep using your mods wich would not be updated for newer game versions. That surely would be a heartbraking decision you would force on the Factorio player base.
I'm not a publishing modder. Unless you count the little Pollution Damage mod which I can't find anymore, the one which gave me a forbidden error when I attempted to upload it to the mod portal (Factorio support email claimed to be mystified, but that was back in the 0.14 days when the mod portal was still new and terrible, so maybe they really were) and which has been superseded by others (e.g..)

As for Bob's, it does seem likely that 0.16 and 0.17 will branch and diverge (and that will certainly happen if he takes ND out of the license), with 0.17 taking advantage of some of those new features, but the announcements in FFF#266 broke an awful lot in Bob's Mods which he now must spend a significant amount of time fixing instead of extending the pack's features. I believe there is a significant possibility he could decide to extend 0.16 functionality before starting the move to 0.17, and if people who use Bob's stay in 0.16 as a result, that could be it. Some people who use Bob's (and there are two who have already publicly announced their intention to do so, me and AlienZoo23) will stay in 0.16 for their Bob's modpack experience in any case, and that could be it even if Bob moves on to 0.17, struggling through all this nonsense until it surpasses 0.16, and that could be this time next year.

As it stands, the axe can't be restored, and that is so horrendous that I want to cuss up a blue streak. I mean, seriously if you're a dev and part of this "unanimous" decision to screw over your core community by solving the problems given as reasons in FFF#266 for removing the axe, what the hell is wrong with you?
Rythe wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:37 am
Problem 1: Making a pickaxe first thing is problematic
Problem 2: Rebuilding pickaxes is an annoying, mostly pointless time sink
Problem 3: Axeless mining speed is punishing and no longer fits game design vision
Bad Solution: Remove pickaxes completely
Both he and I independently went on to post better solutions to implement your intent in vanilla without removing the axe as a modding option, and we have been thoroughly ignored and dismissed as "emotions and very little reason." (posila) Link to my solution.

You guys also seem hell bent on removing the tool slot from the UI as well, which makes no sense because that's the perfect spot for a direct mining speed indicator even if the axe never returns. Again, what the hell is wrong with you?

If you keep acting like this, even if the axe has no friends over there, I've seen Wube's future: the PC had no friends at Blizzard and this happened. Is that really what you want? If so, I'm going to ask it one last time, what the hell is wrong with you?

If you think that is an inappropriate question, go see your doctor and ask for a brain MRI, because you need to know the answer to that question more than I do. I don't know the answer, I'm only seeing the resulting insanity.

I want to add one last thing: Blizzard gathered their sector of the PC master race into a single auditorium with a door fee to announce a mobile game, and that crowd could not have been more astonished if the guys instead literally dropped their drawers and urinated off the edge of the stage. A lot of these gamers could soon be coming to Factorio, but you're not going to close the sale by acting the way Blizzard did, and their noses will be quite sensitive to that smell. Something to think about.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Oktokolo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:43 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:01 am
As for Bob's, it does seem likely that 0.16 and 0.17 will branch and diverge (and that will certainly happen if he takes ND out of the license), with 0.17 taking advantage of some of those new features, but the announcements in FFF#266 broke an awful lot in Bob's Mods which he now must spend a significant amount of time fixing instead of extending the pack's features. I believe there is a significant possibility he could decide to extend 0.16 functionality before starting the move to 0.17, and if people who use Bob's stay in 0.16 as a result, that could be it.
He is probably already updating his mods. Also, i would not expect him to make his license more permissive. But if you really want to fork, you could ask him directly. Maybe he allows you to redistribute alterations for Factorio version 0.16 or earlier.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:38 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:43 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:01 am
As for Bob's, it does seem likely that 0.16 and 0.17 will branch and diverge (and that will certainly happen if he takes ND out of the license), with 0.17 taking advantage of some of those new features, but the announcements in FFF#266 broke an awful lot in Bob's Mods which he now must spend a significant amount of time fixing instead of extending the pack's features. I believe there is a significant possibility he could decide to extend 0.16 functionality before starting the move to 0.17, and if people who use Bob's stay in 0.16 as a result, that could be it.
He is probably already updating his mods. Also, i would not expect him to make his license more permissive. But if you really want to fork, you could ask him directly. Maybe he allows you to redistribute alterations for Factorio version 0.16 or earlier.
Since removing ND from the license has always been an option and I'm pretty certain I'm nowhere near the saltiest guy about that, I'm pretty sure it ain't happening. But there were a few things I expected less which have happened, and one of them is the core dev team giving him source access and then hanging him out to dry with the FFF#266 changes. These are very strange circumstances and it is now very hard to really surprise me, especially with the ongoing trash fires of Destiny 2, Fallout 76, Battlefield V, Diablo Immortal, etc. as we near the end of a year where it seems the only bright spots in AAA gaming are RDR2 and Pokemon Let's Go.

The other thing is that it is not actually necessary for Bob to remove ND from the license for a fork to be made, even a hostile fork. What the prospective forker needs to do is make a mod which specifies the specific versions of Bob's which he is extending as dependencies, and then make his own data extending mod(s). We already have a bunch with names like MoreBob's, ShinyBob's, and Nuclear Extension. The more popular ones are just high-res textures.


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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by Koub » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:58 am

Keep the mining speed upgrade. Discard the axe object crafting. Problem solved.
The mod will be even lighter : no need for new recipes or textures. Instead of having to craft the actual axe, it's granted with the tech unlock.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: The Problem With Pickaxes - Digging Out Factorio's Core

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:46 am

Koub wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:58 am
Keep the mining speed upgrade. Discard the axe object crafting. Problem solved.
The mod will be even lighter : no need for new recipes or textures. Instead of having to craft the actual axe, it's granted with the tech unlock.
Problem not solved: I research titanium axe and *poof* instant mining speed upgrade. I haven't made a single titanium plate, which is not a trivial thing in Bob's, and maybe I haven't even mined a single piece of rutile ore. I'm just walking around with titanium mining speed, and it might be a VL challenge map, or maybe a ribbon maze, where I can't even see rutile, but hey I'm walking around with indestructible titanium fingernails.

You really have lost the plot, haven't you?

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