Choosing train and track sizes

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evopwr
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Re: Choosing train and track sizes

Post by evopwr » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:18 pm

Amarula wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:01 pm
A couple of questions: first, how do you fuel your trains? I tried a dedicated sector for fueling, but so much wasted time with trains going for fuel when not really needed (no way to say repeat pick up green, drop off at red, until low on fuel), and the fuel sector became first a bottleneck and then a deadlocked traffic jam. So now I have a fuel train that delivers fuel to every sector. There are what seem to be a crazy number of fuel stops, and I have to manually add new sectors to the fuel train schedule. Is there a better way?
I cheat a little bit. I have a general "No Logistic Bots" rule in my bases, as I just think its lazy way for people who cant be bothered doing real design, and solving real problems. My exception is I allow LogiBots to supply my personal inventory, and to supply train fuel.
So I have 2 requester chests at each source station (or output, doesnt matter). one chest supplies the front locomotive, and another one supplies the back locomotive. (I use <CCCC< trains). The Logi Bots keep 3 nuclear fuel in each chest.
Amarula wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:01 pm
Second, I find that trains are lined up to pick up resources at one sector even though there are lots of resources available at another sector (the shortest path algorithm for trains I guess). Yes I am disabling the station if there aren't enough resources for a full load, but if station A has 10K (two and a half loads) and station B has 125K, the trains still go to station A. So my factories at station A are working full bore, and the factories (or furnaces) at station B are at a standstill. I am wracking my brains over how to do a general better load balancing that will still work when I add station C and D and... without being crazy complicated. Any ideas much appreciated!
Yes, it is a problem. I can think of a few options, but none of them great.
eg, disable when train is there,
OR, have an escape road so waiting trains cant give up and go somewhere else, as soon as the stop is disabled (by buffer chests dropping below threshold, and stop getting disabled).
Or, I guess some complex circuitry could be done to ensure only one stop is enabled at a time - but i think you probably also want an escape round for this scenario.

I didnt do anything to resolve this. Trains would queue up like you mentioned, and then fly on past (once track is free) if the stop gets disabled while its waiting. Its obviously not ideal. I did only enable the stop of the chests were 50% full though, so dunno if that helped?

Amarula
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Re: Choosing train and track sizes

Post by Amarula » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:37 pm

Thanks for taking time to share your experience, even if it is just to share my pain ;-)
evopwr wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:18 pm
... I allow LogiBots to supply my personal inventory, and to supply train fuel.
So I have 2 requester chests at each source station (or output, doesnt matter). one chest supplies the front locomotive, and another one supplies the back locomotive. (I use <CCCC< trains). The Logi Bots keep 3 nuclear fuel in each chest.
A requester chest containing fuel, for each locomotive: check. But where does the fuel for the chest come from? I have this picture of a huge line of logistic bots straggling across a huge base as they run out of power, taking fuel from the fuel sources (yes I have multiple sectors producing fuel) to the train stops in distant sectors. And my sectors typically don't contain oil or coal that I can use to create fuel on the spot, and importing oil or coal has the same challenge as importing fuel directly.

Ha! If we could put logistic bots and fuel on a train, the train could run around all the sectors without having to stop and the bots would zip out and stock up the fuel chests! (Like my artillery train endlessly circling my base driving off biter attacks) Oh well I can dream :D

nosports
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Re: Choosing train and track sizes

Post by nosports » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:52 pm

Amarula wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:37 pm
Ha! If we could put logistic bots and fuel on a train, the train could run around all the sectors without having to stop and the bots would zip out and stock up the fuel chests! (Like my artillery train endlessly circling my base driving off biter attacks) Oh well I can dream :D
I don't know if this just funny bantering :D

I have a chem-factory designated to produce plastic. But there was also some space and oil for solid-fuel.

Now this chem-factory delivers the plastic to some electronic circuits and the susequent smelters.
There i set up a fuel delivery-train which waits there and will be called from any fueling-station which runs low on fuel to provide for the passing trains or some station where its needed.

mrt144
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Re: Choosing train and track sizes

Post by mrt144 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:29 pm

Amarula wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:37 pm
Thanks for taking time to share your experience, even if it is just to share my pain ;-)
evopwr wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:18 pm
... I allow LogiBots to supply my personal inventory, and to supply train fuel.
So I have 2 requester chests at each source station (or output, doesnt matter). one chest supplies the front locomotive, and another one supplies the back locomotive. (I use <CCCC< trains). The Logi Bots keep 3 nuclear fuel in each chest.
A requester chest containing fuel, for each locomotive: check. But where does the fuel for the chest come from? I have this picture of a huge line of logistic bots straggling across a huge base as they run out of power, taking fuel from the fuel sources (yes I have multiple sectors producing fuel) to the train stops in distant sectors. And my sectors typically don't contain oil or coal that I can use to create fuel on the spot, and importing oil or coal has the same challenge as importing fuel directly.

Ha! If we could put logistic bots and fuel on a train, the train could run around all the sectors without having to stop and the bots would zip out and stock up the fuel chests! (Like my artillery train endlessly circling my base driving off biter attacks) Oh well I can dream :D
Technically, can't you get halfway there with loading them onto trains? Isn't the real problem loading 'active' bots back onto the train once they complete their task? I already know you can load bots into the roboport structures and they rush off to do jobs you need done but I've never found a trick for loading them back into chests/trains. Like, the furthest I got was that you need to ensure that the roboport network at the destination was oriented in a way that inactive bots could be loaded back onto trains, but that was all mental exercise. I think that it becomes very very difficult to have functional roboports for building things to the scope you want while also ensuring there is no excess roboports away from inserters to load onto trains or into chests that then snake their way via belt to the trains.

There's no 'congregate at this roboport if possible' function is there ;)

Ringkeeper
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Re: Choosing train and track sizes

Post by Ringkeeper » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:59 am

didn't saw it yet, but if you play with mods and want to use alot of trains, go with LTN .... makes live so much easier. Special the refueling of trains, as you have depots where the trains park and are easy to refuel.

And for the intersection you might check this thread: viewtopic.php?t=46855 , it has all kinds of intersections (deadlock proof most of them) .

evopwr
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Re: Choosing train and track sizes

Post by evopwr » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:16 pm

Amarula wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:37 pm
Thanks for taking time to share your experience, even if it is just to share my pain ;-)
evopwr wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:18 pm
... I allow LogiBots to supply my personal inventory, and to supply train fuel.
So I have 2 requester chests at each source station (or output, doesnt matter). one chest supplies the front locomotive, and another one supplies the back locomotive. (I use <CCCC< trains). The Logi Bots keep 3 nuclear fuel in each chest.
A requester chest containing fuel, for each locomotive: check. But where does the fuel for the chest come from? I have this picture of a huge line of logistic bots straggling across a huge base as they run out of power, taking fuel from the fuel sources (yes I have multiple sectors producing fuel) to the train stops in distant sectors. And my sectors typically don't contain oil or coal that I can use to create fuel on the spot, and importing oil or coal has the same challenge as importing fuel directly.

Ha! If we could put logistic bots and fuel on a train, the train could run around all the sectors without having to stop and the bots would zip out and stock up the fuel chests! (Like my artillery train endlessly circling my base driving off biter attacks) Oh well I can dream :D
Sounds like your talking about a really large area making logistic bots delivering fuel unfeasible?
Maybe using a dedicated train containing fuel is the solution as you suggested. I wouldnt worry about puting Logistic bots on it?
Fuel train is loaded from some output fuel stop, and then travels to each other station (input stations or output stations? either will work i guess), and using filter inserters output on to a belt which then loads on to the main trains when they come by the same track?

2 issues I can see though,
1. Fuel train gets stuck behind other trains at the stop. So, cant have trains sitting at stops for long periods. I guess if you design it so your input stops or output stops are quick turn around, then it could work
2. There will be quite a bit of fuel sitting on the belts at every stop - lots of wastage!

You could do a roboport at each stop as you mentioned, to reduce the need for belts and wastage, but that has its own issues as well.

Greybeard_LXI
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Re: Choosing train and track sizes

Post by Greybeard_LXI » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:28 pm

evopwr wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:16 pm

1. Fuel train gets stuck behind other trains at the stop. So, cant have trains sitting at stops for long periods. I guess if you design it so your input stops or output stops are quick turn around, then it could work


You could do a roboport at each stop as you mentioned, to reduce the need for belts and wastage, but that has its own issues as well.
The only places I have a single automated train station is at mining outposts. (I also have a passenger stop for each.) So there will be a small stacker to get trains off the main line. I add a dedicated station for the fuel train.

Amarula
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Re: Choosing train and track sizes

Post by Amarula » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:37 pm

evopwr wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:16 pm
Fuel train is loaded from some output fuel stop, and then travels to each other station (input stations or output stations? either will work i guess), and using filter inserters output on to a belt which then loads on to the main trains when they come by the same track?

2 issues I can see though,
1. Fuel train gets stuck behind other trains at the stop. So, cant have trains sitting at stops for long periods. I guess if you design it so your input stops or output stops are quick turn around, then it could work
2. There will be quite a bit of fuel sitting on the belts at every stop - lots of wastage!

You could do a roboport at each stop as you mentioned, to reduce the need for belts and wastage, but that has its own issues as well.
Close. Fuel train has separate fuel sidings for its stops, so it doesn't block the sector trains, and (unless I get backed up with all the e.g. iron trains trying to load at one iron depot, which also blocks my main track grrr) the sector trains don't block the fuel train. This also means the fuel train has its own inserters unloading the fuel onto the fuel belts to the main trains so no need to filter. And very true there is a fair amount of fuel sitting on every one of those belts, but so far I have solid fuel production backed up so all that wastage isn't causing other problems.

And so far the whole schmozzle is working, including having only one fuel train to support all my sectors, but the train schedule for the fuel train is humungous - and a humungous pain to manage.

Thank you again for your input, despite my laments, I really am having a blast with this setup, gradually building up my science capacity now that the main structure is in place - I am really liking the sector format, need more blue circuits? plop down another blue circuit sector! And the rocket launches are just proceeding quietly in the background, hit rocket #150 yesterday...

mrvn
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Re: Choosing train and track sizes

Post by mrvn » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:24 pm

Amarula wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:37 pm
evopwr wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:16 pm
Fuel train is loaded from some output fuel stop, and then travels to each other station (input stations or output stations? either will work i guess), and using filter inserters output on to a belt which then loads on to the main trains when they come by the same track?

2 issues I can see though,
1. Fuel train gets stuck behind other trains at the stop. So, cant have trains sitting at stops for long periods. I guess if you design it so your input stops or output stops are quick turn around, then it could work
2. There will be quite a bit of fuel sitting on the belts at every stop - lots of wastage!

You could do a roboport at each stop as you mentioned, to reduce the need for belts and wastage, but that has its own issues as well.
Close. Fuel train has separate fuel sidings for its stops, so it doesn't block the sector trains, and (unless I get backed up with all the e.g. iron trains trying to load at one iron depot, which also blocks my main track grrr) the sector trains don't block the fuel train. This also means the fuel train has its own inserters unloading the fuel onto the fuel belts to the main trains so no need to filter. And very true there is a fair amount of fuel sitting on every one of those belts, but so far I have solid fuel production backed up so all that wastage isn't causing other problems.

And so far the whole schmozzle is working, including having only one fuel train to support all my sectors, but the train schedule for the fuel train is humungous - and a humungous pain to manage.

Thank you again for your input, despite my laments, I really am having a blast with this setup, gradually building up my science capacity now that the main structure is in place - I am really liking the sector format, need more blue circuits? plop down another blue circuit sector! And the rocket launches are just proceeding quietly in the background, hit rocket #150 yesterday...
I think while still using coal as fuel the amount on the belt is irrelevant. A LC train can carry 2000 coal and you want to have it driving around full. So I have my fuel unloading stations enabled when the buffer chests are empty. Then 2000 coal arrive and a fraction of that fills the belt. Using only one side of the belt cuts that to a half. The amount on the belt is my emergency buffer. Enough to keep trains driving and furnaces burning till the next fuel train arrives.

Now compare those maybe 200 coals sitting on the belts of a train station with the 60 coal/s you are burning at the power plant. If that's more than 3s coal production then you don't have enough coal mines.

On the other hand it gets more expensive with nuclear fuel. You can add circuit logic that limits the number of fuel on the belt.

evopwr
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Re: Choosing train and track sizes

Post by evopwr » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:17 pm

mrvn wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:24 pm
On the other hand it gets more expensive with nuclear fuel. You can add circuit logic that limits the number of fuel on the belt.
Yes, I was picturing 100 trains stops, with 200 nuclear fuel sitting on belts at each stop... ouch...

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