Factorio Forums

leoch wrote:You could just use a fast-start mod; that's what I do now.

Aside from that, you can build construction bots using only a very basic refinery set-up. Carry a bunch of engine units over to a simple electric engine assembler. Pip petroleum out for a small plastic & battery facility. Important point: you don't need to automate the next tier of science to get the bots.

Curious, I would swear that the chain of dependencies requires blue science to actually construct bots. Because of batteries maybe? I can't remember.

zOldBulldog wrote:

leoch wrote:You could just use a fast-start mod; that's what I do now.

Aside from that, you can build construction bots using only a very basic refinery set-up. Carry a bunch of engine units over to a simple electric engine assembler. Pip petroleum out for a small plastic & battery facility. Important point: you don't need to automate the next tier of science to get the bots.

Curious, I would swear that the chain of dependencies requires blue science to actually construct bots. Because of batteries maybe? I can't remember.

A quick glance at the wiki shows batteries, electric engines, flight, robotics, construction robots, and a few miscellaneous prerequisites to only require green science.

zOldBulldog wrote:

leoch wrote:You could just use a fast-start mod; that's what I do now.

Aside from that, you can build construction bots using only a very basic refinery set-up. Carry a bunch of engine units over to a simple electric engine assembler. Pip petroleum out for a small plastic & battery facility. Important point: you don't need to automate the next tier of science to get the bots.

Curious, I would swear that the chain of dependencies requires blue science to actually construct bots. Because of batteries maybe? I can't remember.

Probably because personal roboport is 50 :blue_science: ?

Right now you *do* need oil for robots - which might not be available in the starting area - which the whole complaining might be about ?

BlueTemplar wrote:

zOldBulldog wrote:

leoch wrote:You could just use a fast-start mod; that's what I do now.

Aside from that, you can build construction bots using only a very basic refinery set-up. Carry a bunch of engine units over to a simple electric engine assembler. Pip petroleum out for a small plastic & battery facility. Important point: you don't need to automate the next tier of science to get the bots.

Curious, I would swear that the chain of dependencies requires blue science to actually construct bots. Because of batteries maybe? I can't remember.

Probably because personal roboport is 50 :blue_science: ?

Right now you *do* need oil for robots - which might not be available in the starting area - which the whole complaining might be about ?

That might be what I was thinking about. If you can't use them effectively it is worse than not having them, like adding insult to injury.

Now that you mentioned it I can think of the following, as far as early use of bots:

- Without oil in the starting area you can't use the bots. Sure, you can spend an hour previewing maps until you get one with oil and the other resources, but that is a boring chore, and not why people play games for.
- Once you manage to get oil in the starting area without the personal roboport, bots are not quite convenient. Also, even with the personal roboport, it's early use with solar and mk1 batteries is very slow. Not very useful nor an enjoyable experience.
- So, for early use we must fall back to laying down a grid of regular roboports and create a large number of bots. This is probably viable if you manually launch the bots after creation. Automatc launch and management might be feasible but all of the designs I saw rely on combinators (also red/green), passive providerb(red/green) and requester chests (yellow science).

In conclusion, I have to accept and agree that bots are possible with red/green science if you lay angrid of roboports and launch them manually... at least in theory. It is something I will have to attempt.

What puzzles me is that I have never seen a design or blueprint for a starter base to produce them early on. Could there be something else needed that we've missed?

zOldBulldog wrote:What puzzles me is that I have never seen a design or blueprint for a starter base to produce them early on. Could there be something else needed that we've missed?

The first modular armor is relative difficult.

darkfrei wrote:

zOldBulldog wrote:What puzzles me is that I have never seen a design or blueprint for a starter base to produce them early on. Could there be something else needed that we've missed?

The first modular armor is relative difficult.

Yes, we already concluded that "personal/portable bots" are not viable at the red/green science level. That includes the personal roboport and the modular armor.

The only "maybe viable" robots that early are "regular robots" using a grid of roboports.

So what I meant by a bot starter base is one based on red/green science only and that creates roboports, construction and logistic bots as early as possible.

I have a reasonably decent starter base on factorioprints (and a better version that I'm working on) but it does not make the bots themselves... something I need to address now that I know that it is at least theoretically possible, but it would be nice to see how others have done it (if anyone has) before I tackle that job.

leoch wrote:you don't need to automate the next tier of science to get the bots.

That sounds so wrong
Though I am guilty of handfeeding a single assembler for several hundred yellow science, so there goes the righteousness...

You don't need blue science for bots at all !

But then, at the same time, bots, while being only "green science", require more complex "petrochemicals" than blue science :
Blue science (and Roboport) only requires plastic for red circuits.
Bots *themselves* not only require plastic, but also sulfuric acid for batteries and lubricant for electric engines !

zOldBulldog wrote:

darkfrei wrote:

zOldBulldog wrote:What puzzles me is that I have never seen a design or blueprint for a starter base to produce them early on. Could there be something else needed that we've missed?

The first modular armor is relative difficult.

Yes, we already concluded that "personal/portable bots" are not viable at the red/green science level. That includes the personal roboport and the modular armor.

The only "maybe viable" robots that early are "regular robots" using a grid of roboports.

So what I meant by a bot starter base is one based on red/green science only and that creates roboports, construction and logistic bots as early as possible.

I have a reasonably decent starter base on factorioprints (and a better version that I'm working on) but it does not make the bots themselves... something I need to address now that I know that it is at least theoretically possible, but it would be nice to see how others have done it (if anyone has) before I tackle that job.

Hi,

I've done a bit of work on Scratch / Starter bases and i have some blueprints that do this.

I just added these four to Factorio Prints. They aren't perfect, but they work for me as a way to get started. Also, they are slow.

https://factorioprints.com/user/Wq3hD25 ... T692xi9L82

I saw the Early Construction Drones and I think that is a good direction.

jon

i do early game a lot as i spin up worlds with mod sets to see how they play, and i have often resorted to hand feeding the first 75 blue science to unlock advanced refining so that everything can convert over to petroleum and speed up building.

that said, blue science is still a slow part of the game with a lot of technical building.

the mod i rely on until i get bots is bluebuild.
Bluebuild allows you to act as your own robot and auto-builds around you at your pickup radius. combine it with any pickup radius extender and you are your own early roboport + bots.

once you get bots, you can easily turn off bluebuild via keyboard shortcut. the only part that doesnt work that great is teardown. its slow and it uses your existing tools. its better than nothing, and will typically double your clearing speed for forests, etc, but its nowhere near as good as bots are.

Bluebuild would work nice as an early armor module ! (still need plastic for modular armor though)
It could be represented in-game by some kind of robotic arm extending from the player ?
Oh, what about a "crane" building auto-placing items within its short range ?

BlueTemplar wrote:Bluebuild would work nice as an early armor module ! (still need plastic for modular armor though)
It could be represented in-game by some kind of robotic arm extending from the player ?
Oh, what about a "crane" building auto-placing items within its short range ?

Just tack a long handed inserter onto the back of the armour, and you have something that could build within 2 tiles of the player (assuming the player isn't moving too much. Red inserters aren't that fast).

You could even add 2 inserters onto the players shoulders, for double the speed.

Yeah, I had the picture of an inserter on the back - two on shoulders is even better though!

Well they could make light armour have a 2x2 grid, enough for space for one 2x2 burner powered inserter (burning coal from the character inventory). Heavy armour could have a 2x4 grid enough space for 2x4 grid enough space for 2 burner powered inserters. At modular armour you could upgrade to 2 fast inserters powered by solar panels and batteries. Then move to personal roboports.

You know what might be better? To have the player character automatically build parts of a placed blueprint that he runs past. And if a deconstruction planner is used, have him automatically pick up these things which he runs past.

Therefore, no bots necessary, really. Just make sure these placings and pickups are fluid and fast, without any user interaction necessary apart from running through the vicinity.

Recon777 wrote:You know what might be better? To have the player character automatically build parts of a placed blueprint that he runs past. And if a deconstruction planner is used, have him automatically pick up these things which he runs past.

Therefore, no bots necessary, really. Just make sure these placings and pickups are fluid and fast, without any user interaction necessary apart from running through the vicinity.

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Mylon/Bluebuild

darkfrei wrote:

Recon777 wrote:You know what might be better? To have the player character automatically build parts of a placed blueprint that he runs past. And if a deconstruction planner is used, have him automatically pick up these things which he runs past.

Therefore, no bots necessary, really. Just make sure these placings and pickups are fluid and fast, without any user interaction necessary apart from running through the vicinity.

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Mylon/Bluebuild

Many thanks!! This could really solve the pre-bot tedium issue!
Deconstruction seems a bit slow, but no slower than doing it by hand I suppose.
I still think it should be in vanilla for the benefit of those who don't play modded, or also for those who are achievement hunting.

Achievements are separated into unmodded and modded : And there even are mods that add new achievements !
https://mods.factorio.com/query/achievements
(for popular mods for instance)

I literally have never built a bot for anything in this game. They seem like cheating to me and this game is already ridiculously easy. So I guess any changes wouldn't affect me at all?

The best way to verify this is by testing. So I just built a small base with purely red/green science.

I now have around 500 construction and 500 logistics bots (no research beyond green) and TBH they are nearly worthless.

At maxed red/green science level the bots are so slow that it will probably require a couple thousand to do anything at even an acceptable rate.

A personal roboport might make them more useful, but that will be much later.