Why are 60 UPS = 1s?

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Re: Why are 60 UPS = 1s?

Postby eradicator » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:57 pm

bobucles wrote:Making a 50UPS or 40UPS mod is hard, but making a 30UPS mod is easy. Just double the speed of everything!

More like...half the speed of everything and quadruple the output. Assemblers for example can only make one craft per tick at maximum. The lower the UPS the easier to get there. And then have fun fixing all the other edge cases :P. Inserters probably can't grab more than one item per tick either.
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Re: Why are 60 UPS = 1s?

Postby ratchetfreak » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:07 pm

TruePikachu wrote:I might mention at this point that the speeds of yellow/red/blue belts are currently 1/32, 1/16, and 3/32 of a tile per tick, or 1+7/8, 3+3/4, and 5+5/8 of a tile per second. If the engine were to be modified to run at 50FPS retroactively, it would require the belt speeds to be non-1/32-increments, which I'm not 100% sure is good for the engine (I think I heard that positions are quantized, but I don't recall to what increment). Belts would run 16.67% slower without adjustment of the speeds, and a blue belt would only deliver 33.333 items/second instead of the current 40.

Those values can all be tweaked which you'll need to to restore balance and make it actually worth changing the tickrate. The quantization of the belt position can then also be adjusted.
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Re: Why are 60 UPS = 1s?

Postby bobucles » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:10 pm

Assemblers for example can only make one craft per tick at maximum

A half second recipe can't be pushed above 30 crafting speed. Big deal. The highest vanilla crafting speed is 11.25, which doubles to 22.5. It works out.
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Re: Why are 60 UPS = 1s?

Postby eradicator » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:51 pm

bobucles wrote:Making a 50UPS or 40UPS mod is hard, but making a 30UPS mod is easy. Just double the speed of everything!
bobucles wrote:
eradicator wrote:Assemblers for example can only make one craft per tick at maximum

A half second recipe can't be pushed above 30 crafting speed. Big deal. The highest vanilla crafting speed is 11.25, which doubles to 22.5. It works out.

Notice any inconsistencies? Sure, it's easy to make a mod that doesn't consider any other mod. "Big deal". Also please stop quoting me without my name. Thank you for your attention.
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Re: Why are 60 UPS = 1s?

Postby bobucles » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:27 am

How many mods push beyond the 30 recipe/second threshold? Not that many. Even in vanilla the only recipe that breaks that limit is for barreling, which isn't a big deal because that's never a chokepoint for anything. Building a 30UPS mod is absolutely feasible.
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Re: Why are 60 UPS = 1s?

Postby eradicator » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:12 am

bobucles wrote:How many mods push beyond the 30 recipe/second threshold? Not that many. Even in vanilla the only recipe that breaks that limit is for barreling, which isn't a big deal because that's never a chokepoint for anything. Building a 30UPS mod is absolutely feasible.

Every mod that adds higher tier modules and beacons and assemblers. Like e.g, uh, i dunno...bobs? Nobody said it's unfeasible. Just not as trivial as you make it sound to be. Btw there's one on the portal, feel free to read the code, or the discussions page. Not sure why you're so agressively arguging when the only thing i said is that there's other things to consider than just speed.
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Re: Why are 60 UPS = 1s?

Postby Zanthra » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:43 pm

TruePikachu wrote:I might mention at this point that the speeds of yellow/red/blue belts are currently 1/32, 1/16, and 3/32 of a tile per tick, or 1+7/8, 3+3/4, and 5+5/8 of a tile per second. If the engine were to be modified to run at 50FPS retroactively, it would require the belt speeds to be non-1/32-increments, which I'm not 100% sure is good for the engine (I think I heard that positions are quantized, but I don't recall to what increment). Belts would run 16.67% slower without adjustment of the speeds, and a blue belt would only deliver 33.333 items/second instead of the current 40.


This would explain the behavior I have observed in my Global Tick Time Scale mod https://mods.factorio.com/mod/GTTS . It seems that the highest UPS that yellow belts work at all at is 480 (effective belt speed of 0.00390625) and is accurate at that UPS, suggesting that the game quantizes to 1/256 of a tile. That would make valid UPS values for keeping belts accurate 480/X .

For X 1 through 16 thats:
480, 240, 160, 120, 96, 80, 68.57, 60, 53.333, 48, 43.6363, 40, 36.923, 34.2857, 32, 30

So while 50 UPS is inaccurate, 48 has a correct belt speed ratio, and 53 would be very close to accurate.

AnthonyForPOTUS wrote:1/60 of a second is the time it takes an item, e.g. a copper plate, to move one space on a blue conveyor. Speeding up or slowing the UPS max would effect conveyor speeds. Besides, your eyes can't even see 60 frames per second, let alone 120. You are fooling yourself if you think you can. it's more like 15 frames per second for most people, with certain genetic variations letting some (<0.001% so no you aren't one of them) see up to 25 frames per second. What some people perceive at higher frame rates is motion blur. So higher frame rates will look better, but motion blur effects can be simulated in hardware. Since motion blur would have no real effect in factorio, it isn't needed, and the 60 UPS is locked. 60 FPS is also locked because there is no reason to display at a higher framerate when the image literally doesn't change any faster.


Also a note on this. When the eye is following a moving object, the eye does what is called a smooth pursuit. As the object moves, the eye matches the movement speed of the object in order to cancel out the object's motion and reduce motion blur. A computer screen updating the positon at discrete intervals will lead to the object bluring as the eye is moving smoothly and the object is jumping along at 60hz. This is something that cannot be corrected by synthetic motion blur, and any synthetic motion blur would only make the problem worse as it's blurred once in software and once again while your eye is tracking it. Strobing backlights like ULMB can help to some extent, but can introduce very bad strobing to even static objects (like your mouse cursor if you move it quickly around the screen, except when it's still and you move your eyes across the screen). People talk about how high refresh rate displays are not worth it unless you are doing an FPS or something, but I find that it's games like Factorio with large scrolling backgrounds where I see the most benefit as things at 120hz are twice as sharp (half the blur) when scrolling the map due to smooth pursuit than at 60Hz.

The move to higher frame rates has a lot of other challenges, but there are lots of people who recognize the benefits. https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2014-08-h ... a-100hz-tv

The demo at the GSC was generally well received. A large portion of the public could see the benefits of higher frame rate straight away and were very impressed; others needed some prompting on where to look and eventually could appreciate the difference, while others couldn’t see the differences at all, even with lots of prompting, however, the latter were a much smaller minority, about 5% of the visitors.
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