Achievements in MP / always online server

[DarkyPupu]

When you have an always online MP server (like, running even when nobody is connected), the limitation to be at least 50% of time online for achievements makes them impossible to get.

Would it be possible to have an option to disable that, at least for modded games ? I would love to use some extra achievements mods but this makes it totally impossible...
Those achievements are "local" to that game anyway so it shouldn't interfere with steam / original ones.

[eradicator]

I believe the reason that feature exists is that people complained about inadvertedly getting heaps of achievements without doing anything when they for example load up a mega-factory map they downloaded somewhere because they wanted to know what a working megafactory looks like, or join an ongoing mp game. And for that problem "modded or not" doesn't really matter.

[DarkyPupu]

I think the right criteria would be to enable that or not via an option (server option or client option, i don't really have a preference). Personally i have all Steam achievements for a while and the current system makes the whole achievements system totally useless regarding mods (if you use an always online server, which is i understand not the most used but still it exists )

[Zavian]

I actually think their is an argument for making Steam achievements a single player only thing, But I'm sure a lot of people would disagree. The current 50% of time on the map, means that you can get a achievements from multiplayer games when playing with friends, assuming that you all play at similar times, so that is on for more than 50% of the time the map is active, and won't get a mass of achievements just for joining a megabase for 5 mins.

The only other option I can think of would be to track achievement progress on per a player basis, but how would you implement launch a rocket in 8 hrs with that sort of system?

[DarkyPupu]

I fully understand the reason it was made. Still, it prevents to use some excellent mods which bring some goals in the game in MP. It's not a game breaker, i just don't use those mods. I think achievements are already player-based (for some ? ) because for green cards for example, we had a different count my friend and me. I think achievements like "build x thing(s)" it's per player, and for "have a rate of x/min" or such it's of course for everyone joining the game.

Ultimately i would say it's up to players to decide how they want to acquire achivements, as there are so much different ways to play

[Zavian]

Some achievements (eg produce a total of XX green circuits) accumulate over multiple games, so those are probably tracked per player even in a multiplayer game.

Edit: It's possible that all achievements are actually tracked on the local client (and hence per player), since the server typically won't be connected to steam, and some of the players might be playing with a game install that isn't connected to steam, whilst other people will be playing with the steam version.

[zOldBulldog]

Sounds like the main issue is that the game is failing to track achievements "per player" whren they play multiplayer. It surprised me because it should not be hard to only grant credit towards achievements *while* the player is online and not grant anything if something happens when he is offline.

Personally, I find that the lack of some mechanism to find and evaluate servers that match your needs is the biggest problem of multiplayer and why I have not bothered. I would hate to join a server and spend a bunch of hours on it only to discover that it is populated mostly by 8-year olds, griefers or antisocial players. Ideally I would like to find and join a server interested in similar things to me, people that I can learn from and they can learn from me. But today there is only the multiplayer forum and it really doesn't help, as all you see is "come to my server", "I want some people to play with" or "looking for players of a given language or time zone". That is not even close to enough detail to make a choice.

[eradicator]

Sounds like the main issue is that the game is failing to track achievements "per player" whren they play multiplayer. It surprised me because it should not be hard to only grant credit towards achievements *while* the player is online and not grant anything if something happens when he is offline.

Everything that is trackable personally is done that way (destroy x trees, build x circuits, etc). But certain things can not be tracked that way (produce x circuits per hour, train in 90 minutes, etc).

Personally, I find that the lack of some mechanism to find and evaluate servers that match your needs is the biggest problem of multiplayer and why I have not bothered. I would hate to join a server and spend a bunch of hours on it only to discover that it is populated mostly by 8-year olds, griefers or antisocial players. Ideally I would like to find and join a server interested in similar things to me, people that I can learn from and they can learn from me. But today there is only the multiplayer forum and it really doesn't help, as all you see is "come to my server", "I want some people to play with" or "looking for players of a given language or time zone". That is not even close to enough detail to make a choice.

Do you know any game that implements anything even near that? Because i can't imagine a system that would fullfill that. Griefers don't write "come here to be griefed" into the game description, and the system won't even know the age of the players, much less have a method to tag players "antisocial" (or whatever other prejudice you like). Imho if it was possible to make that kind of system all the large MMOs would instantly implement it. That they haven't is proof that it can't be made.

[Koub]

You're new to the game.
Connect to a public megabase server that achieves 1+k science/min.
Get 90% of the achievements in a short duration presence, either passively (plates/circuits production), or actively (grab whatever's needed to burn trees, order item deliveries, plop down a blueprint, and deconstruct a few times, ...
Disconnect.

Congratulations, you've completed most achievements in a couple hours of gameplay, while you haven't even automated red science by yourself.

[DarkyPupu]

@Koub : Dunno for who the first sentence was, but clearly not me as i play for a bloody long while

The goal of my request would be to have still use of achievements after having already aquired all of them for a while. Currently for me the achievement system could be fun (mods allow to add achievements) but cannot be used.

The reason i spoke of modded games only in my initial post, was clearly because it fits my needs :
- Being able to use achievement mods without risks for the un-modded games (and therefore the Steam achievements)
- If you accidentally connect to a public game with mods, it may spoils at max the achievements for THAT game

I don't think it's anything complex to implement, probably just a client or a server config "% of time required to have achievements (modded games only)"

I think of the % of time more as a safety to not have vanilla achievements without wanting it, rather than anti-cheat system. What is to be avoided is indeed to connect to a game (especially new players) and have all vanilla achievements ruined without reset possible

[Koub]

Yeah sorry, I realize I wasn't clear enough. It's a generic you, not a ... you you.
Well I'm net even understanding myself now.

It was do describe what could happen to a random new player if achievements could be obtained on an MP server based on what happens while one's logged onto it, vs the need to have played at least half of the MP server's life as it's the case now.
I was totally not using you as an example for my demonstration

[DarkyPupu]

No worries i didn't take it seriously

I'm curious to know how much people plays on a always-online server (even if nobody is connected) - if it's a niche or not.
Personnally I think that even on solo games, it adds awesome sensation to the game because not only you have to automate and all, but also make sure it is able to survive without you or anyone for sometimes a very long while

For engame and with some rampant mod, it makes a nice goal to reach : staying alive

[eradicator]

I'm curious to know how much people plays on a always-online server (even if nobody is connected) - if it's a niche or not.

I didn't even know that was possbile. And as the default setting for servers is "pause when nobody's there" i'd guess not too many. I liked that sort of behavior back in the days of OTTD. Set up some trains, then come back later to reap the rewards without the tedious waiting inbetween. For factorio one would at least need a good research queue mod though.

[zOldBulldog]

Sounds like the main issue is that the game is failing to track achievements "per player" whren they play multiplayer. It surprised me because it should not be hard to only grant credit towards achievements *while* the player is online and not grant anything if something happens when he is offline.

Everything that is trackable personally is done that way (destroy x trees, build x circuits, etc). But certain things can not be tracked that way (produce x circuits per hour, train in 90 minutes, etc).

Personally, I find that the lack of some mechanism to find and evaluate servers that match your needs is the biggest problem of multiplayer and why I have not bothered. I would hate to join a server and spend a bunch of hours on it only to discover that it is populated mostly by 8-year olds, griefers or antisocial players. Ideally I would like to find and join a server interested in similar things to me, people that I can learn from and they can learn from me. But today there is only the multiplayer forum and it really doesn't help, as all you see is "come to my server", "I want some people to play with" or "looking for players of a given language or time zone". That is not even close to enough detail to make a choice.

Do you know any game that implements anything even near that? Because i can't imagine a system that would fullfill that. Griefers don't write "come here to be griefed" into the game description, and the system won't even know the age of the players, much less have a method to tag players "antisocial" (or whatever other prejudice you like). Imho if it was possible to make that kind of system all the large MMOs would instantly implement it. That they haven't is proof that it can't be made.

It is possible to count those achievements you mention just when the player is logged on... if the devs choose to do so. It is as simple as maintining separate counters for each player and only update them if they are logged on, even if they are being achieved as a team. Then for example if you log off and the train is completed in 90 minutes... You just don't get it in that particular game.

As to games where you can find the right servers / teams, I've had little trouble in other multiplayer games. It takes me all of 30-60 minutes to find a viable sminecraft server that satisfies my needs. It took me a little longer in Combat Arms to find a good team but I did. Armored Warfare was probably the easiest to find a team that matches my skill and needs because of it's stats system. In factorio I've been looking at the multiplayer forum for weeks (months) and I wouldn't have a cleu of what server is worth it for me to join.

[eradicator]

It is possible to count those achievements you mention just when the player is logged on... if the devs choose to do so. It is as simple as maintining separate counters for each player and only update them if they are logged on, even if they are being achieved as a team. Then for example if you log off and the train is completed in 90 minutes... You just don't get it in that particular game.

For "x within the first y minutes" sure, you could deactivate getting them afterwards. Though problems remain for the timespan before. What if someone has a short internet outage of say 5 minutes during a 90min run? What if they urgently need to leave for an hour during a 15h run? Also you very conveniently fail to explain how you think personal tracking should work for "produce x per hour" type achievement. And how would you determine if a player gets the "rocket launched" achievement if they join a 1 rocket-per-minute base? Do you want to keep the 50% rule for some achievements but not for others o_O? Personally i don't think it's worth wasting any more dev time on achievements than has already been wasted. Achievements are nothing but a constant source of complaints. Even for game that don't have achievements people start complaining about that too >_>.

As to games where you can find the right servers / teams, I've had little trouble in other multiplayer games. It takes me all of 30-60 minutes to find a viable sminecraft server that satisfies my needs. It took me a little longer in Combat Arms to find a good team but I did. Armored Warfare was probably the easiest to find a team that matches my skill and needs because of it's stats system. In factorio I've been looking at the multiplayer forum for weeks (months) and I wouldn't have a cleu of what server is worth it for me to join.

Ok. So you mention three examples that supposedly work. I only know minecraft of those and i'm not aware that it has any sort of global server browser at all? Or to phrase it differently: If you really think you know how to make a better server browser, then start a new thread, and provide ample visual and text description of how to make it better. You saying "game x does it right" without explanation doesn't help anyone (and is not the topic of this thread :P).

[zOldBulldog]

It is possible to count those achievements you mention just when the player is logged on... if the devs choose to do so. It is as simple as maintining separate counters for each player and only update them if they are logged on, even if they are being achieved as a team. Then for example if you log off and the train is completed in 90 minutes... You just don't get it in that particular game.

For "x within the first y minutes" sure, you could deactivate getting them afterwards. Though problems remain for the timespan before. What if someone has a short internet outage of say 5 minutes during a 90min run? What if they urgently need to leave for an hour during a 15h run? Also you very conveniently fail to explain how you think personal tracking should work for "produce x per hour" type achievement. And how would you determine if a player gets the "rocket launched" achievement if they join a 1 rocket-per-minute base? Do you want to keep the 50% rule for some achievements but not for others o_O? Personally i don't think it's worth wasting any more dev time on achievements than has already been wasted. Achievements are nothing but a constant source of complaints. Even for game that don't have achievements people start complaining about that too >_>.

As to games where you can find the right servers / teams, I've had little trouble in other multiplayer games. It takes me all of 30-60 minutes to find a viable sminecraft server that satisfies my needs. It took me a little longer in Combat Arms to find a good team but I did. Armored Warfare was probably the easiest to find a team that matches my skill and needs because of it's stats system. In factorio I've been looking at the multiplayer forum for weeks (months) and I wouldn't have a cleu of what server is worth it for me to join.

Ok. So you mention three examples that supposedly work. I only know minecraft of those and i'm not aware that it has any sort of global server browser at all? Or to phrase it differently: If you really think you know how to make a better server browser, then start a new thread, and provide ample visual and text description of how to make it better. You saying "game x does it right" without explanation doesn't help anyone (and is not the topic of this thread ).

For the first part, developers already know how to do it. It is just a matter of whether it is worth it to them to do it.

For the minecraft example, it isn't even developer built. There are a number of websites that provide information about servers and lots of reviews for different focuses. A simple well formed google search will help you identify them. Most recently I was looking for a kid friendly server for my 8-year old grandson that didn't wipe your work if you had a period of inactivity and used the most common mods. I was able to google and 30 minutes later I had 5 reasonable candidates. I researched the websites for those servers, went onto them and chatted with the admins, and a day later I had narrowed that down to a choice and a fallback. I spent some time personally playing on both and they were both excellent. Sure, minecraft is a much more mature game and has a bigger community, so this kind of thing is easier... but however it gets achieved (by devs or by the community) it doesn't matter. It just happens to be critical for a healthy multiplayer game. My hope is that someone with the interest will recognize the need and develop some kind of rating/classifying website that people can look at, and hopefully they'll make a profit doing it.

But the point I'd make is that unless such a thing happens "somehow" multiplayer factorio will remain a very minor element of factorio, because if people can't easily find servers they like, they won't bother with multiplayer even though it is a mode that they know they could like it a lot.

[eradicator]

(Everyone else keep walking, there's nothing to see here.)

to zOldBulldog

[quote="zOldBulldog"]For the first part, developers already know how to do it. [/quote]
I see. You have no solution so you just pretend someone else does.

[quote="zOldBulldog"]For the minecraft example, it isn't even developer built. There are a number of websites that provide information about servers and lots of reviews for different focuses. A simple well formed google search will help you identify them.[/quote]
[Moderated by Koub] But, anyways. You're describing a phenomenon that a community at least 50 times larger than the factorio one has ... somehow naturally evolved to have some sort of search mechanism, because the game itself provides none. And according to you it's not even one search site, it's several that you have to use in parallel? The lack of any search at all in the base game might even have encouraged this. In any case it's not a concious effort, it's just random chance. And you say that even with that system you still took a whole day to find a reasonable candidate. Have you consider that you may simply have a lot more experience with finding minecraft servers than finding factorio servers? And that you have come to convince yourself that the process you just described is somehow reasonable both from a time and usability standpoint? I get shivers every time i even have to install mods for minecraft because the whole thing is a heap of rotten chaos with too many custom adware-based "launchers" from everyone who wants to make a quick buck off the community. Up to the point where i had to finally write my own patchwork launcher to get a remotely reasonable user experience.
Also imho by the very nature of its strongly computationally limited simulation speed (compared to minecraft that only needs a strong server) factorio can never be what you seem to want it to be. Common consumer hardware is too slow to simulate large maps populated by tens of players each building their own factory. And building a megafactory together requires a team effort that is imho not realistic to expect from a bunch of strangers on an open server.
But, w/e. If you want to talk about this make a seperate topic for it. I won't derail this one any further. And as future advice: please stop full-quoting every post your answering to, all that does it waste space and make your answer more difficult to read. A simple @name at the start of your answer is sufficient.

[Koub]

But the point I'd make is that unless such a thing happens "somehow" multiplayer factorio will remain a very minor element of factorio, because if people can't easily find servers they like, they won't bother with multiplayer even though it is a mode that they know they could like it a lot.

What I'm going to say almost hurts me to admit it, because I'm an old misanthrope who doesn't like people and was convinvced that adding multiplayer would hurt Factorio by diverting precious dev time into a useless feature : multiplayer. Well if multiplayer has added a great dose of complexity (because it relied on determinism to work with Factorio), I'm sure multiplayer is what gave the boost in its spread allowing it to get over 1M sales. I'm sure a good proportion of the playerbase does multi (but I'd be interested in real numbers if the devs have them).

@Eradicator : I kept walking and saw nothing, because there was nothing to see, right ?

[Jap2.0]

I've found several good servers just by looking though the list sorting by highest player count, and from there looking at the titles.

[zOldBulldog]

I've found several good servers just by looking though the list sorting by highest player count, and from there looking at the titles.

List? Player count?

Can you give a link?