I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

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Deadlock989
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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by Deadlock989 »

darkfrei wrote:
HurkWurk wrote:i personally felt something similar after my first play though and rocket launch back in 14, since then ive gone to mods to meet the requirements you talk about, and making my own starter maps, etc.
1. Vanilla
2. Mods
3. Own mods
In a nutshell. Is the game not perfectly to your liking? Do something about it yourself. Mod it.

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by bobucles »

So. Uhm. I'm not seeing the reason why Factorio has to change itself to fill the gaping void in my life. I also don't understand how one set of game objectives will magically give me the fulfillment of having accomplished something, compared to another set of game objectives. At the end of the day, both options are choices made in a video game. I'm not losing any sleep over the option to save or exterminate digital aliens any time soon. On the other hand, I've lost plenty of sleep over the 80 belts of furnaces that need to be fed. Does that make sense?
All it takes is a structure change in the metagame and a few extra features to support it. Its not a huge undertaking
I don't think you understand what sucks players into Factorio and drains their lives away. The game doesn't present any moral dilemmas, bad acting, or hot drama that belongs in a soap opera. It never has. What Factorio does is it gives players one giant Puzzle to solve. The first learning experience involves mastering all the moving bits, understanding recipes, and pumping out science. Then players tie those lessons into slowly building bigger until they launch the rocket. Space research gives players a chance to go further beyond, building bigger and better bases. Those mega bases require mastering the train network and circuit network to solve problems that smaller bases don't have. Finally the experts push out into the ultimate meta of converting CPU cycles into as many rockets as possible. These are all very challenging and alluring puzzles that have ended friendships, shattered marriages and ruined the lives of many of our fellow players.

What do your ideas add to the table? Is it a new puzzle to throw into the mix? Is there some sort of obstacle that forces players to relearn how they build bases and logistics? Well maybe. Your overarching theme of war vs. peace is utter garbage. No one cares about the feelings of a hive mind's subjects, what they want is more ROCKETS. The idea of new maps, new recipes and new resources already exist in countless mods. Special events aren't meaningful if they don't add to the puzzle aspect of Factorio, but it's very difficult to make an obstacle that can be overcome with more effort than "just like build moar XD". Granted, "Build MOAR" becomes its own obstacle as the player has to learn new ways of building big.

A very vague assertion that something "can be done" and "good ideas exist" isn't helpful. If a good idea exists out there, go out and FIND it. But at the same time, make sure it embraces the parts of Factorio that players love. Giant robots, zerglings, Tough Choices and headshots aren't the selling point of Factorio.

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by eradicator »

Deadlock989 wrote:
numgun wrote:Human beings have a natural, fundamental need for meaning
Prove it.
Do you...realize the irony of asking for proof to that question :D? (hint: proof == meaning)
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bobucles wrote:No one cares about the feelings of a hive mind's subjects, what they want is more ROCKETS.
Actually i only want more modules. Not enough modules. Need to construct additional modules.
_________________
Without digging through all the longposts ( :mrgreen: ) i want to add one thing:
I actually hate "meta progress". I hate that shit that every fucking rouge-lite game has, that forces you to fail over and over again, without a chance, until you have grinded enough coins to unlock the actual gameplay. I hate that developers try to hide their lack of content by deceiving people into a feeling of progress by increasing numbers on some meaningless statistic. I also hate achievements btw. Basically i hate every meta shit mechanic that is not actual gameplay that is fun in itself without someone telling you to do some mindless "achievement" (the guy who coined that term was a marketing genious i have to admid) aka doing something that you'd usually do only once because it's batshit boring one hundret times instead. I just want to enjoy a games content like in the old days where nobody gave away virtual pictures of golden medals for click-crushing 500 empty crates. When my attention was mine to direct, and wasn't stolen away by blinky warning signs telling me what to do next. Thank you for listening. I'll be going for a run now...

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by MeduSalem »

bobucles wrote:No one cares about the feelings of a hive mind's subjects, what they want is more ROCKETS.
Image

I am a simple man, I just enjoy squishing bugs.

I like the sound of Gun Turrets hammering away at them and Flame Thrower Turrets roasting them alive... It is the only reason I create the biggest fukken pollution cloud possible reaching far beyond the explored horizon by slamming beaconized PM3/SM3 setups everywhere. Don't give a damn about the environment or peace at all. I want to attract as many biters as possible. That the turrets are getting better and better at hacking and slashing through their hordes with research is just a nice side-effect.

Is there any meaning in that kind of madness?

Absolutely not.
eradicator wrote:
Deadlock989 wrote:
numgun wrote:Human beings have a natural, fundamental need for meaning
Prove it.
Do you...realize the irony of asking for proof to that question :D? (hint: proof == meaning)
Proof doesn't automatically imply a meaning.

11 is a prime number. -> Can be proven.
Does it have any special meaning? -> No.

The main difference is that one thing is objective and true at all points of the observable universe and the other is subjective and may already loose validity once it leaves your mind.

Meaning is something that cannot be universally proven... and it is quite obvious when looking at the fact that different people give different or no meanings to the same things.

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by numgun »

Heres my take on the situation.

Factorio has a lot of structures and solutions for its metagame that are common in many games that came before it. Things like the research system, achievement unlocks, a scripted story campaign (New Hope), challenge scenarios and the whole start-from-nothing-then-work-up-to-the-top journey.

It is very common for game developers to copy these existing structures from old games made by others in the past into their own games as templates in an attempt to quickly solve the issue of how should the game be experienced.

Checking out the Development Proposals forum, it is quite clear that these things are still in development and in consideration, since there are signs that show the existing models don't seem to work. There is uncertainty about how to solve certain aspects of the game, such as the "Peace with Aliens" thread that is still going strong today. I don't think the people at Wube have yet found the solution or identified the problem, hence why that thread even exists.

I also have noticed that the developers really do care for the game and are active in getting feedback about design decisions and ideas, and they often state that they would appreciate any feedback recieved from the players about the game to make it better. I feel that the devs are doing their best to understand what the design problems with their game are through constantly listening to what the people that play the game say.

Meanwhile, in the general forums, in suggestions/ideas forums and elsewhere, many players are constantly bringing up the same issue of there being a lack of meaning to the game after the rocket launch and achievements. These come from that very same feeling of hollowness that comes from the unsatisfied human need for meaning that I'm talking about, which are an artifact from the flawed copied structural/organization templates of game from the past that never did solve these issues in the first place, but since they were popular, they ended up being used elsewhere. Factorio is a victim of this design shortcut like many other games before it.

All this common player feedback comes in different forms and disguises, suggestions on "more end-game content", "random events", "more achievements", "more research", "expansion packs", "more content, environments and more of everything and anything", "more goals" and many other variations that really all stem from the same source. The factory building gameplay is really satisfying and stellar, but the organization of how the game experience flows is where things fall apart.

Its a bit unfortunate as most people are often just players of the game and not designers or game developers themselves, so their suggestions often do not identify, let alone address the source of the problem. Its not surprising, since the knowledge on fundamental human needs is not common and the problem itself is a very complex and abstract one, with not that many existing solutions from old or even upcoming games that could be easily copied as a template.

This is also difficult for Wube, as they're relying on player voice to tell whats wrong with the game, but the player don't always know why they feel the way they do and do not have the right tools or knowledge to properly explain it. Some suggestions often only prolong the issue, cover it up or make matters worse. Its a bit of a minefield to navigate when trying to understand what is the fundamental issue with the game. I find this type of feedback driven game design process a nightmare, which unfortunately is all too common in the games industry, since game design is not an easy subject to learn and understand.

I'd be interest to hear from the developers what they think of the suggestion I'm presenting and have them ask questions about its finer details. There is a lot of thought put behind what I'm suggestion than what appears on the OP.

Currently, I feel a bit discouraged to go into the details, since the suggestions forum is chock-full with threads as is, there is a lot of existing work that needs to be done according to the current Factorio roadmaps, PAX is a thing, other events and who knows what else is keeping Wube busy, so I'm not certain if the developers have the time and energy to browse and engage with this suggestion, which makes me reluctant to invest myself to really engage in the thread beyond the initial fire-and-forget OP that mainly aims to inspire.

However if the developers do want to hear more and ask specific questions about it, then I'd be happy to elaborate.
  • I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio: THREAD LINK

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by bobucles »

I think maybe I kind of sort of get it? Numgum is super vague about the whole thing, but most of those emotional feelings boil down to the presentation of the game. Factorio development has always been super focused on making an efficient, solid core engine and most of their efforts are hidden from casual view. This kind of focus has made an extremely solid game experience that presents many challenges yet few frustrations for players. However the game world itself suffers from a severe lack of context. There are a great many moving pieces, but the world building just isn't there. We know nearly nothing about what these moving pieces are, how they came to exist or why they're important in the scheme of the Factorio Universe.

Ask players why they're building a rocket and they'll say "to build a rocket". Ask them about biters and they'll say "they're biters of course". Everything we're given and told to do is done at face value. Thus an emotionally driven player struggles to attach a value or "meaning" behind any of these actions.

For example science is just "a thing" that you build. The reason you build "the thing" is to "put it in labs" so you can "get more science". Like, Duh. We've definitely been doing that for years like well trained Pavlovs, but I can't actually build a narrative around that. The storyboard of Factorio is years old, most of it is in the trash, and almost no one knows what it was ever supposed to be. IIRC there's something about "being stranded" and "launching an SOS beacon" I think, but only sparse elements of that story actually exist in the game. The campaign doesn't even take you half way to the main game's goal of "launch a rocket". That is definitely a glaring flaw on the storyboard.

I guess some of it can't be helped. Factorio isn't a movie and it isn't a drama. But players looking for a complete story, with gameplay attached, from start to finish won't find it here. That aspect of Factorio was never in the crosshairs and never materialized. Instead we've been focused on the kind of player who dives a thousand hours into building a mega base. They have evolved beyond the need for "Stories" or """""campaigns""""" and are a prime candidate for mashing the {skip cutscene} button. As such the forum feedback is always centered around the struggles of super players who want "more factory more better". There is nearly no feedback on the story elements of Factorio, and the discussion on it pretty much doesn't exist.

Was that it? Did I get it?

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by MeduSalem »

bobucles wrote:Ask players why they're building a rocket and they'll say "to build a rocket". Ask them about biters and they'll say "they're biters of course".
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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by eradicator »

As far as i'm concerend the OPs suggested meta game is pretty much the opposite of a proper story, because the very definition of a story is that it has a beginning and an end. A perpetual statistics game can't be a story because neither does it begin, nor does it end. I've mention before that i'd very much like factorio to have more lore, my mod concepts mostly have some kind of lore, and i try to add flavour text were possible.

Regarding "lack of content" i see a very difficult problem there. Really great puzzle games are great preciesly because they have a limited number of "pieces" to the puzzle, and you can't make the puzzle infinetely better by adding infinite amounts of new pieces. Much like you can't make chess better by adding new pieces. Imho a big requirement for this is that you can have all the available pieces in your mind simultaneously, which is a condition factorios current set of pieces fullfills. But take for example something like xanders or bobangels, which has so many pieces that you have to constantly look up what is used for what. Which makes for a completely different gaming experience, as you never get that feeling of having totally internalized all rules of the puzzle. And the devs have stated numerous times that they are very aware of this. Which is why there are no 3-way splitters, or diagonal-inserters or whatnot in vanilla, becaues the limitations are the puzzle. I'm not saying factorio should never have any more content, just that you can't mindlessly add large amounts of new stuff without considering how that new stuff changes the focus of the puzzle. And bear in mind that the main target audience would probably not enjoy bobangels at all, even though they like vanilla, because so much stuff gives you a constant feeling of not having understood everything. Which is a feeling most people don't enjoy.

Now...back to building more factory. Because.

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by quyxkh »

numgun wrote:
  • Upon reaching the winning condition, all the work I've done gets discarded. All accumulated resources and items are deleted.
So don't discard it. This isn't line dancing, there's no caller telling you what steps to take next, the point isn't to complete tasks in joyous unison, the point is to make gizmos with joyous inventiveness. Some people can't find the fun in line dancing with real people. Some people can't find the fun in inventiveness with virtual gadgets. If you want to build more, build more.
[*]Attempting to continue playing after a rocket launch feel empty, since there is no official objective to work towards.
I've long thought the rocket-launch achievement's official title should be "Tutorial complete!". You don't need even a madeupnumberquarter of the game's gizmos to launch a rocket. If you get that far and feel no desire to play with all the rest of the gizmos then I confess I can't imagine why anyone would think pixel rewards for doing it anyway would help.
[*]The achievements feel vain, I only hold myself back from enjoying the game's features fully if I choose to pursue them.[/list]
Wait, didn't you just say it was the _lack_ of goals that left you feeling empty? So, goals or no goals, you don't have any desire to play with trainyards and circuit gizmos and nuclear-plant design and logistic robots and what not. Goals or no goals, that's pretty much what more there is to play with. If it's not fun, if there's nothing attractive about playing with those, then plopping some artificial carrot in there that said you played with them a lot would somehow make it fun for you? Not buying it.
[*]Having to start a new game from scratch means all research requires re-doing, this time feeling like a chore than a path of gradual discovery and surprise.[/list]
Again with the claim out of nowhere that says you have to abandon a map. You don't. But if MOBAs aren't fun for you, demanding that LoL become a sandbox game which is fun for you isn't going to get you very far with LoL fans. Same with anything you care to name, platformers, racing, puzzle, sandbox, FPS, RPG, TBT, RTS, BBQ, whatever. One thing's for sure, if you're after achievements to fill that hollow feeling you're talking about, videogame achievements are never going to help you. Taking lots of people's money is never going to do it for you. The only thing I've ever found that really does it for me, that never gets old, is to make someone's eyes go wide with pleasure at newfound possibilities.

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by Escadin »

Wait... there is a winning condition? Huh...

I'm just here to build stuff I haven't built yet or take stuff I have actually built but make it better. It's an endless list of goals and I've yet to see the end of it appear on the horizon.
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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by olafthecat »

If you launch the rocket, you win.
Factorio is a sandbox game, if you want another goal, make one up!
Gonna start playing again with 0.16 build.
That's all.

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by foodfactorio »

after you launch your main rocket (and potentially win), the SpaceX mod is pretty cool to try, as it lets you launch multiple rockets to try and build space stations and a large ship in space.

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/SpaceMod


there is also a new mod by nebri regarding Offworld Shipping, being worked on at the moment, and maybe they can help with new goals to help you in terms of a sense of progression, or reusing certain items you have collected (and stored) over time :) https://mods.factorio.com/mod/OffWorldShippingCo also related to a mod idea i posted (which is shown in my signature below)
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=50256


(in one of my games, i also stored up about 20 cascaded Warehouses full of honey, which was quite funny) :) viewtopic.php?f=97&t=34176&start=20#p294780
(also me from the mod portal - im not dustine lol) = https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Dustine/ ... ssion/9108
my 1st Mod Idea :) viewtopic.php?f=33&t=50256

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by Rjay75 »

This reminds me of trying to explain to people what Factorio is. For years one of my favorite games was Sid Meiers Railroads. I have way to much time invested in it. I like sandbox games. For the last few years it's still Railroads occasionally and SIm City of course. A few years ago I discovered Banished. Another game that really no definite winning point. You make a colony to get larger that you have to educate, feed, provide shelter, and fuel. If any of it gets out of whack things go out of balance real fast and citizen die. There's no advancement in the game. You can do everything from the start. But you have to be extremely careful how you manage resources. My only issue with it is no railroads.

Which brings me to the point and the main reason I like Factorio. For me it's all about the logistics of getting the right materials to the right places in sufficient but not overwhelming quantities where you may end up with storage issues. I've been playing for a few years now and have never reached building a rocket. Not wholly interested in doing so either. I'm currently just trying to get large efficient factories. I like the combination of using trains for long distances and belts for short and bots here and there.

I played for a while with peaceful biters but the issue with that mode I quickly discovered after my factory got some size is there is not enough of risk. One of the things with biters are you have to defend while you're trying to get things built. It also gives you a reason for researching weapons. So the biters give you risk that you can't just set up shop and let it hum along unattended.

I guess I don't have an end goal with the game.I do have ideas of some things I may try and write a mod for to give it a more Railroads/Banished feel. Like making things deteriorate so you have to have construction bots repair them which means they have to be supplied. Adding more uses for some of the lesser used things.

Outside of that I'm building for the sake of building. Getting bigger just because. So I'm really slow with my research the further I get in the game.

I don't see anything really lacking in the game as it is. I've been playing all this time vanilla and there's probably a combination of mods now to add some of what I'd like. Just haven't looked cause I'm pretty satisfied as it is now.

Long and short of it this is the type of game that is what you make of it and I like that it doesn't have a definite end. Now I need to look for what I actually came to the forum for before I got sucked into reading this thread.

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by JimBarracus »

Rjay75 wrote:I played for a while with peaceful biters but the issue with that mode I quickly discovered after my factory got some size is there is not enough of risk. One of the things with biters are you have to defend while you're trying to get things built. It also gives you a reason for researching weapons. So the biters give you risk that you can't just set up shop and let it hum along unattended.
Biter handling has to be automated like most things in the game. Basically it is a challenge like power supply or research.
If you manage to create a system, that is running by itself. (power, repairs and resupply of destroyed entities) you don't have to deal with biters at all.
Only contact with biters in late game is when you claim more land, which can be also done with artillery 0.16.

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by HerpicusMcDerpington »

Normally im someone who (at least tries to) write essays like you, structured, make it easy to read, not just a two liner.
Trying to see it from different angles and understand other people

Instead (since i need sleep badly) i´ll just quickquote a small line and try to be direct and bring you back on the ground.
numgun wrote: and feel terrible when people dismiss a problem with the game's design,
The problem exists for YOU! (there might be others)


After launching a rocket in a death world im done with biters. They are a distraction to me, and a very minor one at best.
So in every new map, they are disabled. Im even looking for a mod that disables all infinite military researches, they annoy me, sitting in the tech screen, useless.

The game has so much more to offer than launching a rocket. Even unmodded
I´d have to think long and hard, before i could name a game that was like Factorio is now, diverse, without an endgame goal. The corrent one became a minor thing and not realy a goal.
But thats ME, others may find even that one hard.

And you only suggested solutions that include biters.

What about others that think like me? Should i feel bad about myself when my wishes of a biterfree game are dismissed?

There is a solutions to thousands of ways to go and its called "there is a mod for that"
I have recently read a thread that discusses just that one thing and how people hate that line.
You cant implement everything into vanilla, you cant please everyone.
So: big, gamechanging vanilla changes are very unlikely to be even thought about.
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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by eradicator »

HerpicusMcDerpington wrote:What about others that think like me? Should i feel bad about myself when my wishes of a biterfree game are dismissed?
Nope. I've even gone the "next step" after peaceful -> removing biters completely and started removing trees/rocks/cliffs because dealing with them is not interesting. And no, robots are not a solution to that problem. They still takes hours to clear large enough areas.

Removing all military tech doesn't even require a mod btw, just paste this to your console:

Code: Select all

/c
local infs = {
  'grenade-damage-7',
  'shotgun-shell-damage-7',
  'laser-turret-damage-8',
  'gun-turret-damage-7',
  'flamethrower-damage-7',
  'bullet-damage-7',
  'combat-robot-damage-6',
  'rocket-damage-7',
  'cannon-shell-damage-6',
  'artillery-shell-range-1',
  'artillery-shell-speed-1',
  'follower-robot-count-7'
}
for n,t in pairs(game.player.force.technologies) do
  for _,i in pairs(infs) do
    if n == i then t.enabled = false end
    end
  end

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by HerpicusMcDerpington »

Thank you!

Here a tip back:
Start a map with some texture changing mod like Alien Biomes, then disable it.(i had to cos it causes huge and many, lag spikes)
It becomes a nice green grassland, without any rocks and very few trees (mainly the dead ones) and no forrests where they were created with the mod active.

Its beautiful
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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by blavek »

numgun wrote:
Now the rocket is just a small focus for your factory, the rest is up to the player to make their own purpose, as with most sandbox games.
See, I feel very skeptical about this mindset. Human beings have a natural, fundamental need for meaning, that whatever they spend a lot of time with contributes to their life positively and that what they do matters. This applies to playing video games too.
...

This doesn't excuse game design holes. People simply find various ways to cope with the flaws of the game design, explaining away that the game is fine and the issue is with themselves or with others. Seeing this happen over many years with many different people, I don't trust the whole "its a sandbox game" line at all. There is always something behind it that allows a person to ignore the inherent flaw of the game's organization/structure.
...

All it takes is a structure change in the metagame and a few extra features to support it. Its not a huge undertaking. Just a bit of reorganization of existing elements in a clever way.
There are a few things I would like to add to this thread.

The first is as much as you may want to you don't get to decide the direction of the design. If you want that ability then make your own game.
Second what you are calling Flaws many of us call features. Launching a rocket is an aspect of the game and with .15+ it became fairly important as the goals of many players were to continue and to build a big base or achieve some goal. 10 Rockets per minute or rediculous Science. Whatever. Factorio from a game development perspective is actually quite a refined experience and to parrot others the point of it is that there isn't strictly a defined end.

If all it takes is what you call a small change, then you should be able to make the mod that does what you want. I think that you will find that the kinds of things you are asking for is actually much more difficult and time consuming than you expect. But the tools are there and the devs expose more and more of the engine to modders very often so lets see what you can do.

Specifically endgame solutions based around biter combat is probably the worst direction that the game could go. Fighter biters isn't fun for long and becomes trivial BUT, if you want a combat factory play a death world. Plenty of biters to kill there. The only real kind of end game solution where the game itself as opposed to personal motivation drives continued play would have to be some kind of fractal project which just continued to expand which you would then need to keep making factory pieces to get to the next stage faster. But ultiomately this isn't required.

The Devs have every right to want to move on to another project and as they are a fairly small indie studio it is very likely that it is impossible to put any real development into the next project while Factorio is in full development. They aren't EA with 8 teams developing different products. One of the things they have put for as a possible future project is a Factorio expansion which would grow the game in ways that aren't currently feasible. As far as patreon and subscriptions the philosphy that the team has is basically this is what our product costs and for what you pay you get this much. Adding a different monetization stream to Factorio would violate that philosphy. This is a group of people who won't even discount their game because they feel that it would be unfair to those of us who have already paid full price. Let them reach their stopping point for factorio and watch what they do next. And if the game doesn't meet your goals or standards then either don't play it or use the tools at your disposal to make it what you want.

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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by provet »

Goal:
Building your super factories to get to other planets and start colonies where the alien resistance is much higher.

Natural phenomenons will stand in your way (huge meteorites that with damage in the range of nukes) which require you to build shield domes, but these
shield domes needs energy ore which can only be obtained from planet xyz_energy_ore, so to get to planet abc_meteors you first must have visited
planet xyz_energy_ore and fortify against the_alien_resistance_is_much_higher (which also has other set of biomes not seen before, also it's missing
Iron so good luck!)

And then you have a logistical nightmare between different planets, setup rockets to launch resources between worlds to support you production of
ever growing production of higher and more advanced tech.
Finally you've built your battleship and nuked the planet of mad scientist that exiled you when you tried to stop their nihilistic plan to destroy the
universe, saved the world and ended your quest for meaning in factorio.

Mod suggestion anyone?

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Darthlawsuit
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Re: I feel hollow after finishing a game of Factorio.

Post by Darthlawsuit »

Play death world and try to survive. I too got bored during previous versions due to lack of military focus. Their improvements make a world of bugs actually fight able without turret creep. Spread your resources out and make them rare so you have to invade enemy territory to survive. I have a game like that and I keep getting hurt as they send waves upon waves of enemies at me till they deplete my energy supplies.

They might not be smart but when I am attacked on all sides every day and sometimes multiple attacks in different areas at once it becomes an issue especially when your running out of coal and they just destroyed your coal outpost.

Also what is with everyone wanting to save the universe. We are invading a foreign world and polluting it to hell. Why not make our goal the extermination of all the natives of the world. We can be the evil dude invading these poor backward creatures. Kill all natives, own the planet, profit!

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