Flamethrower ammo for turrets

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Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby EstebanLB » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:01 pm

I don't now if this discussion existed and was put down already or not, the search didn't bring anything.
Why were the flame turrets created with only direct feed of oill-products by pipes in mind? What about using flamethrower ammo that exists already or even just filled barrels of such oil-products?
I know that I can achieve the last one by just putting a factory next to the turrets, but that just takes extra steps and still makes having just one turret not worth it, in contradiction to the actual fire mechanics that makes having several flame turrets together, redundant
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby Koub » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:51 pm

I think it's part of the game balance that the most powerful turret has some kind of drawback, which can come from additional logistic issues to solve.
Gun turrets have to be shipped ammo, laser power, flame thrower turrest must be provided fluid ammo. If they could use discrete portable flamethrower ammo, it would be no different than gun turrets (interms of logistics).
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby Zavian » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:57 pm

If you want to supply them with oil in barrels it is trivial to setup an a nearby assembler as an unbarreler.
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby EstebanLB » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:00 am

Zavian wrote:If you want to supply them with oil in barrels it is trivial to setup an a nearby assembler as an unbarreler.

That what I said in the OP
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby MeduSalem » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:24 pm

Koub wrote:I think it's part of the game balance that the most powerful turret has some kind of drawback, which can come from additional logistic issues to solve.
Gun turrets have to be shipped ammo, laser power, flame thrower turrest must be provided fluid ammo. If they could use discrete portable flamethrower ammo, it would be no different than gun turrets (interms of logistics).


I would be actually in favor if all of the 3 turrets required handling of empty shells.

Gun Turrets would use magazines and output empty cartridges.
Flame Thrower Turrets would use barrels filled with whatever oil and output an empty barrel.
Laser Turrets would use batteries or plasma cells and output a spent battery/plasma cell after several recharges. And they wouldn't require electricity from the grid anymore as that would go into the production of the batteries/cells.

The output products then can be either stockpiled or recycled (with later research). That would not only save on initial resources but also increase the logistics around them.

And a nice sideeffect would be that the dumb turret creeping of Laser Turrets would be solved as well because nobody would do it then due to the efforts. Also the damage output of the turrets could be more balanced because then the drawbacks would be more comparable as they are now. A lot of people are still like plastering Laser Turrets everywhere because of the zero difficulty involved.

New additional turrets would use the same strategy, like flak cannon turrets or rocket turrets etc, if they get ever implemented.

That is what I have been suggesting for years now... and as seen with the Nuclear Power stuff and recycling of spent fuel cells it can be seen that it is actually a nice mechanic that requires some thought of priority management in the production chain of fuel cells so that you don't end up with stockpiles of spent fuel cells.
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby mrvn » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:04 pm

The nice thing about fluid ammo is that you only need one underground pipe at the turret. The unbarreling plant and distribution pipes can be further back from the front and a single unbarreling plant can support a whole bunch of flame turrets.
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby MalcolmCooks » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:05 pm

Nah I think it's good that the different types of turrets all need different logistical considerations. I do wish there was more use for flamethrower ammo though, because although I do use the flamethrower a lot for burning down forests and biter nests (it's SO GOOD against biter nests in the early game) it still takes a long time to go through just one stack of ammo. Would be cool if there was a flamethrower turret on the tank or something
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby Jap2.0 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:04 pm

MeduSalem wrote:
Koub wrote:I think it's part of the game balance that the most powerful turret has some kind of drawback, which can come from additional logistic issues to solve.
Gun turrets have to be shipped ammo, laser power, flame thrower turrest must be provided fluid ammo. If they could use discrete portable flamethrower ammo, it would be no different than gun turrets (interms of logistics).


I would be actually in favor if all of the 3 turrets required handling of empty shells.

Gun Turrets would use magazines and output empty cartridges.
Flame Thrower Turrets would use barrels filled with whatever oil and output an empty barrel.
Laser Turrets would use batteries or plasma cells and output a spent battery/plasma cell after several recharges. And they wouldn't require electricity from the grid anymore as that would go into the production of the batteries/cells.

The output products then can be either stockpiled or recycled (with later research). That would not only save on initial resources but also increase the logistics around them.

And a nice sideeffect would be that the dumb turret creeping of Laser Turrets would be solved as well because nobody would do it then due to the efforts. Also the damage output of the turrets could be more balanced because then the drawbacks would be more comparable as they are now. A lot of people are still like plastering Laser Turrets everywhere because of the zero difficulty involved.

New additional turrets would use the same strategy, like flak cannon turrets or rocket turrets etc, if they get ever implemented.

That is what I have been suggesting for years now... and as seen with the Nuclear Power stuff and recycling of spent fuel cells it can be seen that it is actually a nice mechanic that requires some thought of priority management in the production chain of fuel cells so that you don't end up with stockpiles of spent fuel cells.


That would be an interesting change, however it would remove most of the diversity from your defense options. Currently gun turrets require ammo (solid via belts/bots/trains), laser turrets require power (via power poles), and flamethrower turrets require some type of oil (fluid via pipes/fluid tankers). Changing it to your suggestion would give these all basically the same logistical requirements as gun turrets.
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby MeduSalem » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:37 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:That would be an interesting change, however it would remove most of the diversity from your defense options. Currently gun turrets require ammo (solid via belts/bots/trains), laser turrets require power (via power poles), and flamethrower turrets require some type of oil (fluid via pipes/fluid tankers). Changing it to your suggestion would give these all basically the same logistical requirements as gun turrets.


I agree.

That said though there is not really that much diversity in it anyway if everything dies by just placing an array of the same turret type. I think the diversity should be more about which type of enemy a turret type is good against. But that is just my opinion.
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby Kryptos » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:05 pm

Personally, I switch to laser turrets by the time I have the production capacity to automate reloading of gun turrets. Even on a deathworld, I usually end up hand cranking 10-15 gun turrets at strategic chokepoints, and refill them by hand, as my laser walls start getting built.

Anyone here ever play the wave defense scenario, but not for completion? I've got a save that's nearly 24 hours in to the wave defense, and the evolution of defenses is quite interesting. First 2-3 waves, gun turrets is enough. Next 2-3 waves, you need lasers. By wave 7, I haven't figured out a way to survive without pumping crude along my walls for lines of flamethrowers. At that point, your defenses are set and you just need to fill in the gaps. Switching to light oil is possible, but not easy, as it requires some high throughput refining for a negligible damage boost.

But then research and time becomes a factor. Crude runs out quick (not by winning the scenario standards)-About 12-16 hours in, you'll start to see a drop in the pipe pressure. By then, I'm also diverting a good amount to plastic and batteries. If you switch to laser damage instead of flamethrower damage research, you should be able to switch back to laser walls as soon as you get to the point where behemoths die in 2-3 laser shots. It is not feasible before then. Matter of fact, researching your way to 2 shot behemoth kills is the only way to possibly expand to the resources outside of the starting area, because the constant wave of behemoths makes flamethower turret creep impossible.

I also don't think adopting a rock-paper-scissors type system in which each turret is good against a particular type of biter would work in a game like Factorio. I know I'd solve it by simply doubling my current laser walls. Brute force the biter that's weak to lasers. Unless one type is literally immune, but then, what does it add? Factorio isn't exactly a Tower Defense game, it's a production game. If you wanna try balancing turrets to fight enemies of specific resistances with conveyor belts, play Mindustry.
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby Deadly-Bagel » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:11 pm

MalcolmCooks wrote:it still takes a long time to go through just one stack of ammo.

Bearing in mind that each unit requires 1 steel, 50 light oil and 50 heavy oil? A stack is also pretty expensive, depending on the type of world you're playing. Oil seems to be one of those things that you can either have too much of or not enough, there's never any middle ground with the map gen settings which is really annoying. Is it so hard to get clusters of ~4 oil wells here and there? No, I can either have 50 in one spot, or 2 every squared thousand tiles.

MalcolmCooks wrote:Would be cool if there was a flamethrower turret on the tank or something

There...is...?
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby MalcolmCooks » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:45 pm

Deadly-Bagel wrote:
MalcolmCooks wrote:Would be cool if there was a flamethrower turret on the tank or something

There...is...?

Oh, worm?
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby Deadly-Bagel » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:17 am

Wtf have worms got to do with anything?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=44505&p=257348&hilit=flamethrower#p257348

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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby mrvn » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:14 am

But that gives me an idea.

Worms on or near oil wells could be flame throwers.
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby Deadly-Bagel » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:50 pm

To what point? There's only one of you. It would be more likely to kill a dozen of its comrades than even hit you.
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Re: Flamethrower ammo for turrets

Postby mrvn » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:27 pm

And wouldn't make teasing them to attack you so much more fun?
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