So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

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redis
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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by redis » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:01 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:10 pm
redis wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:13 pm
Yes, definitely no gaps. So I agree may be some small overlap in range could be allowed, but roboports must be spaced out from each other.
A minimum distance from other ports should be enforcable in build event handlers.
Now we only need someone less lazy than me to actually mod it. ;)
Do you mean something like this? Please, create the mod.

Code: Select all

--control.lua
INTERFERENCE_RANGE = 50

function IsEntityRoboport(entity)	
	if entity.name == "entity-ghost" then if entity.ghost_name == "roboport" then return true end
	else if entity.name == "roboport" then return true end end
	return false
end

script.on_event(defines.events.on_built_entity, function(event)	  
  
  local entity = event.created_entity
  local player = game.players[event.player_index]
  local pos = { x = entity.position.x, y = entity.position.y }   
    
  if IsEntityRoboport(entity) then
	local offset = INTERFERENCE_RANGE - 2
	local interference_area = {{pos.x - offset, pos.y-offset}, {pos.x + offset, pos.y + offset}}
	local entities = game.surfaces[1].find_entities_filtered{name = {"roboport"},  area = interference_area}	
	--local entities = game.surfaces[1].find_entities_filtered{name = {"roboport"}, position = pos, radius = interference-area}
	for _, e in pairs(entities) do		
		if e ~= entity then
		  if entity.name ~= "entity-ghost" then -- If the item is not a ghost insert it back to the player.
			player.insert({name = entity.name, count = 1})
		  end
		  entity.destroy()
		  game.print("Roboports logistic range can not overlap.")
		  return	
		end
	end
  end
end
)

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:07 am

redis wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:01 am
Oktokolo wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:10 pm
A minimum distance from other ports should be enforcable in build event handlers.
Do you mean something like this?
Yep, that should do it for non-PvP.
redis wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:01 am
Oktokolo wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:10 pm
Now we only need someone less lazy than me to actually mod it. ;)
Please, create the mod.
The set of people "less lazy than me" obviously does not include me. :P

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Hannu » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:09 am

redis wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:49 pm
Devs only think about the game up to the point of the first rocket and late game balance is completely screwed up with this bots bias. You should not need to have so many bots in the first place. It is better to compensate with large cargo if needed. Better for UPS and same goal of throughput can be achieved.
I think devs thought bots to be for small scale expensive transportation, like feeding player or malls or special low volume production. But they made them far too strong and of course players took them immediately and built bot based megabases. Devs did not dare to nerf them after that. In my opinion bots have very bad conflict with idea of complex puzzle built from simple parts. Devs can not give practical belt tools, because that would break the puzzle, but instead they give suddenly bots which makes logistics trivial and remove practically all challenge (It is overwhelming exaggeration to call short distances and rows of charging roboports as a challenge compared to 2D routing of belts).

I would fix the bots by giving them collision box and collision avoid flight algorithm. Flock of bots would be very beautiful and that would naturally nerf their performance to level they are not practical for main resource flows from ore to research. But of course that would make bot based megabases impossible and also limit maximum number of bots from 100000 to maybe single thousands because UPS reasons. Devs and many players would not like that. Why they even need unrealistic and silly looking ghost bots? Teleport chests would give even more throughput with less UPS consumption and without distracting noise on screen. At least it would be natural next tier.

But in any case, anyone does not need to fear any significant nerfing of bots. They are here to stay and videos of bot based megabases will be flagship marketing stuff as long as game will be sold. And those who do not like bots can just play without them or with suitable restricted rules. Current situation is actually best win-win which is practically possible.

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Adamo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:28 am

The root of the problem is that solar is OP. :)

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Antilope » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:33 am

Adamo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:28 am
The root of the problem is that solar is OP. :)
Correct, when you have infinite energy, you can have infinite bots.
A good fix could be the degradation of solar energy due to global pollution, or the pollution cloud produced by the factory (maybe in this case a bigger pollution cloud (e.g. double size) considered only by solar production should be a good idea)

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Adamo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:57 am

Antilope wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:33 am
I say don't overcomplicate the problem. Simply put, to power bots with solar panels should use a significant fraction of the footprint of the bot network. It doesn't even have to be more than 50%. Between 10% and 25% might be best. Then, it becomes a space trade-off, limiting expansion in a way that scales with size.

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Hannu » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:28 pm

Adamo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:28 am
The root of the problem is that solar is OP. :)
It is another problem. In my opinion absurdly overpowered accumulators are the energy problem. They make energy production "no brainer". Solar panels are nice, I build usually about 1/3 all three energy sources but do not use accumulators (expect 10 s buffer for coal plant control). So I can build variety of systems and logistics. Daily cycle also gives interesting action in my base when coal powerplants increase their production at night and shut down at morning.

But most players want straightforward simplicity and mathematical perfection and solar power with accumulators give that. In my opinion simple nerfing of panels is not a good solution. It is just tedious. Even you nerf them 90 %, they are still buildable and only option for UPS limited megabases, because their computational needs does not depend on amount. Building would be just more laborious and entertainment value of the game would be lower. All energy resources are so abundant at default settings that UPS or boringness hits before they are depleted. But energy is topic for another discussion.

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Hannu » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:34 pm

Adamo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:57 am
I say don't overcomplicate the problem. Simply put, to power bots with solar panels should use a significant fraction of the footprint of the bot network. It doesn't even have to be more than 50%. Between 10% and 25% might be best. Then, it becomes a space trade-off, limiting expansion in a way that scales with size.
Even it would be 50 % or more player could build huge solar farm on peripheral area of the base outside of main logistic network. It is very difficult to see interesting things in that kind of solution. It would mean more biter clearing, more blueprint spamming, and more waiting that construction bots finish crazy solar farm. All that sounds just laborious and tedious. Where are interesting strategic decisions or challenging system planning?

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Antilope » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:11 pm

Hannu wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:34 pm
Adamo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:57 am
I say don't overcomplicate the problem. Simply put, to power bots with solar panels should use a significant fraction of the footprint of the bot network. It doesn't even have to be more than 50%. Between 10% and 25% might be best. Then, it becomes a space trade-off, limiting expansion in a way that scales with size.
Even it would be 50 % or more player could build huge solar farm on peripheral area of the base outside of main logistic network. It is very difficult to see interesting things in that kind of solution. It would mean more biter clearing, more blueprint spamming, and more waiting that construction bots finish crazy solar farm. All that sounds just laborious and tedious. Where are interesting strategic decisions or challenging system planning?
i think that use the pollution cloud mechanism to reduce panel performance is a realistic nerf.

The well know bot OP problem has for sure easy fix, but huge UPS impact (load/unload time and reduced number of item transported may have low impact, IDK)

EDIT:
maybe, if the devs introduce the current dissipation and low voltage/high voltage mechanics inside the game, this could have some influence on bots. With a lot of bots, lot of charging points are needed, and so a reliable electric generation/transportation system (too many bots recharging together -> electric wire burned, recharge point too far from generator position -> low recharge rate)
Together with an increments in power consumption of bots, this could be a really good solution.

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by redis » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:36 pm

Giving them collision boxes is not even closely an option. This would be a massive performance hit and quite complex programming challenge. Nerfing something based on UPS limits is a bad idea. The goal should always be to improve UPS. There are even talks to simplify fluid dynamics due to UPS impact leave alone ideas which worse ups. Bots are somewhat ok as is except need further constraints. There are limits how many belts/trains you can have per area. The same has to have apply to bots. Limiting density of roboports perfectly tackles the problem and very easy to implement imo.

Anyone who wants to play with unlimied bots throughput can always do so. There will always be ways to play the game the way you want. Devs pay attention to balancing the game, but they are way too afraid to touch bots because it will break existing monster bases and may upset many players. Solution is to give the new feature as an option. This is another reason why collision boxes will not work. You can not make it as optional change or at least it is not worth the effort.

I like bots more than belts after trains, but I can not stand that bots can solve almost all logistical problems. None of the other transportation types can do it all. Devs should find a way to nerf it, i.e fix the longstanding bug.


Hannu wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:09 am
redis wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:49 pm
Devs only think about the game up to the point of the first rocket and late game balance is completely screwed up with this bots bias. You should not need to have so many bots in the first place. It is better to compensate with large cargo if needed. Better for UPS and same goal of throughput can be achieved.
I think devs thought bots to be for small scale expensive transportation, like feeding player or malls or special low volume production. But they made them far too strong and of course players took them immediately and built bot based megabases. Devs did not dare to nerf them after that. In my opinion bots have very bad conflict with idea of complex puzzle built from simple parts. Devs can not give practical belt tools, because that would break the puzzle, but instead they give suddenly bots which makes logistics trivial and remove practically all challenge (It is overwhelming exaggeration to call short distances and rows of charging roboports as a challenge compared to 2D routing of belts).

I would fix the bots by giving them collision box and collision avoid flight algorithm. Flock of bots would be very beautiful and that would naturally nerf their performance to level they are not practical for main resource flows from ore to research. But of course that would make bot based megabases impossible and also limit maximum number of bots from 100000 to maybe single thousands because UPS reasons. Devs and many players would not like that. Why they even need unrealistic and silly looking ghost bots? Teleport chests would give even more throughput with less UPS consumption and without distracting noise on screen. At least it would be natural next tier.

But in any case, anyone does not need to fear any significant nerfing of bots. They are here to stay and videos of bot based megabases will be flagship marketing stuff as long as game will be sold. And those who do not like bots can just play without them or with suitable restricted rules. Current situation is actually best win-win which is practically possible.

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by redis » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:43 pm

Please, explain why nuclear or coal is not OP. Both are ALSO an infinite source of energy. Yes ups is a limiting factor, but ideally it should not be. It is not intended that nuclear and coal are UPS bound as it is a drawback. Do you want solar to be UPS bound too to make it "fair"? I don't think so.

So if space is unlimited the energy is also unlimited. There is no problem here to solve because solar panels are fine as other sources as well. If you want a cap on the energy play limited space worlds period...
Adamo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:28 am
The root of the problem is that solar is OP. :)

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by 5thHorseman » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:45 pm

redis wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:43 pm
Please, explain why nuclear or coal is not OP.
Note: I don't think solar is "OP." I also don't think bots are "OP."

But Nuclear is not OP because you can't place them and then never, ever think about them again. At some point you will need to find a new source of fuel.

Coal is the same, unless you switch to solid fuel and then you could get it forever from your oil fields that are pegged at their minimum.

But in neither case can you just plop down a new set of nuke plants or steam engines and get instant power to your base, like you can with a solar/accumulator array.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Adamo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:55 pm

Hannu wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:34 pm
Even it would be 50 % or more player could build huge solar farm on peripheral area of the base outside of main logistic network. It is very difficult to see interesting things in that kind of solution. It would mean more biter clearing, more blueprint spamming, and more waiting that construction bots finish crazy solar farm. All that sounds just laborious and tedious. Where are interesting strategic decisions or challenging system planning?
If that's how people want to play, what's the problem? It doesn't stop me from building my amazingly twisted and fun behemoths. If you had to have a solar field twice the size of your logistics network on the outside of it, that sounds challenging and difficult to balance, in my book. And it would be many more times the size of that if we're also talking about powering the actual factory, especially if we're using beacons.

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Adamo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:58 pm

redis wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:43 pm
They're not OP precisely because of the reasons you're wrong about. They're not infinite. They can approach infinite with massive productivity research, but they will always run out, and bots use a lot of power, so will make them run out faster. That's the point. Even the "approaching infinite by research" point is a bit of a mistake because it uses MASSIVE power and resources to reach that, with diminishing returns, and again, you can never actually get there.

If you see uranium as an infinite resource, your factory may not be big enough. :)

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by quyxkh » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:24 pm

Adamo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:58 pm
If you see uranium as an infinite resource, your factory may not be big enough. :)
Work out how long you can expect to fuel a 10GW KSPM base off a single 10M Uranium patch and you might reconsider that. I figure it's at least a month even if you're not really pushing the mining-productivity research, and one month's worth of KSPM launches dedicated to mining productivity would get you to insane heights. After just one week you're up around 10x producitivity.

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Adamo » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:38 am

quyxkh wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:24 pm
Like I said, you could possibly increase the power usage of bots, but calling nuclear infinite is nonsense.

By the way, I run actual maps for months and even years at a time on my server network. Uranium runs out, I promise. :) If you're having trouble using it, you need to do more work!

Incidentally, I have a mod that allows you to use heat from your heat pipes to manufacture chemistry recipes.

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by PTTG » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:31 am

Idea: Remove logistics bots entirely.

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by redis » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:53 am

Oh so uranium is a finite resource. Interesting. Don't you think if the map is infinite and resources richness grows with distance there is abundance of uranium and if all that is converted to energy it could support massive number of whatever. Unfortunately pc performance will be the bottleneck but theoretical limit of energy from uranium is infinity.

Adamo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:58 pm
redis wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:43 pm
They're not OP precisely because of the reasons you're wrong about. They're not infinite. They can approach infinite with massive productivity research, but they will always run out, and bots use a lot of power, so will make them run out faster. That's the point. Even the "approaching infinite by research" point is a bit of a mistake because it uses MASSIVE power and resources to reach that, with diminishing returns, and again, you can never actually get there.

If you see uranium as an infinite resource, your factory may not be big enough. :)

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Adamo » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:27 am

redis wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:53 am
Oh so uranium is a finite resource. Interesting. Don't you think if the map is infinite and resources richness grows with distance there is abundance of uranium and if all that is converted to energy it could support massive number of whatever. Unfortunately pc performance will be the bottleneck but theoretical limit of energy from uranium is infinity.
If this is your argument, then all resources are infinite and there's nothing left to say.

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Re: So... Let's talk about bots, and how to fix them properly...

Post by Hannu » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:15 am

Adamo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:55 pm
If that's how people want to play, what's the problem?
The problem is that there is no problem what we discuss here. Bots fit properly in most current playstyles, especially for megabase building. Most people do not get annoyed unrealistic ghost bots which run through each other. Actually I am sure, that there will not be significant changes in bots despite our opinions. Any significant changes would need UPS and/or nerf megabase throughput, the holy and forever things of Factorio.

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