Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Jupiter » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:21 pm

ziron999 wrote:original ratio guess = 0.84

...

original solution:
70 solar to every 100 accumulators
0.85 solution:
70.9(71) to every 100 accumulators is 0.8508 pretty close...honestly it's so minor that 7 to every 10 should be fine even if 0.85 is right.

this is quick programming there is problems...if it can't find the the exact value it will keep looping between the else if's but oh well it works for my purpose.


Uhm, what??

What are you trying to achieve here??

First of all, the ratio is accum/solar panels being 0.84. Not the other way around.
Secondly, what your program is doing is just guessing and adjusting 2 numbers until one of them is 0.85 * the other. We invented the division operator for that.
Thirdly, you are trying to work out with the ratio of total solar output in kW relative to the total capacity of the accumulators which is not what we want to know. We want to know the number of accumulators / number of panels. Not that it really matters because both of them can be calculated from the other but still...

So am I overlooking something here or what?
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby ziron999 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:58 am

Jupiter wrote:
ziron999 wrote:original ratio guess = 0.84

...

original solution:
70 solar to every 100 accumulators
0.85 solution:
70.9(71) to every 100 accumulators is 0.8508 pretty close...honestly it's so minor that 7 to every 10 should be fine even if 0.85 is right.

this is quick programming there is problems...if it can't find the the exact value it will keep looping between the else if's but oh well it works for my purpose.


Uhm, what??

What are you trying to achieve here??

First of all, the ratio is accum/solar panels being 0.84. Not the other way around.
Secondly, what your program is doing is just guessing and adjusting 2 numbers until one of them is 0.85 * the other. We invented the division operator for that.
Thirdly, you are trying to work out with the ratio of total solar output in kW relative to the total capacity of the accumulators which is not what we want to know. We want to know the number of accumulators / number of panels. Not that it really matters because both of them can be calculated from the other but still...

So am I overlooking something here or what?

Yes i do have them backwards you are right that's an easy fix though. yes the whole point is for it to find how many accumulators/solars for you so you don't even have to figure it out. according to the brightness screenshot 14% should = 0.86 so...i don't understand why people still think it's 0.84. Again you can make it whatever you want and just see the results for yourself it looks like no one can seem to get the ratio right and i honestly don't know what that number is you just change it to whatever it is suppose to be. I just wanted to create a rough draft for anyone who wants to make it easier on themselves is all.
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Deadly-Bagel » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:45 am

Uh, you don't have to figure it out. Rule of thumb is 20 accumulators per 24 solar panels per KW demand, or more specifically 84 accumulators per 100 solar panels (generating roughly 4KW). Get out your calculator if you really need to, I blueprint a farm and drop a few down when my power starts running low. There is no reason to use complicated, buggy code instead.

The magic 0.84 ratio has nothing to do with brightness (at least directly), it's a ratio to provide your factory with the same amount of power for an entire in-game day. Solar panels fill your demand during the day AND charge that number of accumulators at night to satisfy the same demand until morning.
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby ziron999 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:10 pm

is there a reason why it's 20/24? 84/100 goes down to 21/25? dividing by 4
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Mehve » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:48 pm

At a guess, 0.84 is a 'perfect' ratio to accommodate a given steady-state power draw, but gives a very small margin of error for handling overnight peaks. 20/24 slightly skews the ratio towards solar panels, giving you a little more recharge potential the morning after.

Also, 20/24 can be further reduced to 5/6, which even easier to remember, and a handier guideline when you're trying to make smaller tile-able designs.
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Frightning » Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:56 am

Deadly-Bagel wrote:Uh, you don't have to figure it out. Rule of thumb is 20 accumulators per 24 solar panels per KW demand, or more specifically 84 accumulators per 100 solar panels (generating roughly 4KW). Get out your calculator if you really need to, I blueprint a farm and drop a few down when my power starts running low. There is no reason to use complicated, buggy code instead.

The magic 0.84 ratio has nothing to do with brightness (at least directly), it's a ratio to provide your factory with the same amount of power for an entire in-game day. Solar panels fill your demand during the day AND charge that number of accumulators at night to satisfy the same demand until morning.

You want to bias towards accumulators, not solar panels, if you want buffer capacity for overdraw scenarios. Extra solar panels without extra accumulators will essentially result in no better outcome for the overnight cycle (technically, since the panels are active concurrently with the accumulators during the dawn/dusk periods, this is not strictly true, but beyond a small amount proportional to the average power of the solar-accumulator system what I have said is accurate).
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby ssilk » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:42 pm

All those calculations and the factor of 0.84 is based on assuming, that your factory needs constant power. But the truth is: that is never going to happen. I build it always so, that I use about 50% of the power. If I go over 50% I know I need eventually moa... :)
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Jupiter » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:37 pm

ssilk wrote:All those calculations and the factor of 0.84 is based on assuming, that your factory needs constant power. But the truth is: that is never going to happen. I build it always so, that I use about 50% of the power. If I go over 50% I know I need eventually moa... :)


Not constant, on average (over a day). I only build more as soon as I experience a power deficiency but beyond that I don't see the point in any form of buffer capacity.
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Gazer75 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:20 am

Is there a sheet that would allow me to enter the value of the panel and accumulator to calculate the ratio?

Reason I ask is Bob's power have different levels of them.
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby DaveMcW » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:26 am

accumulator_ratio = 70 * solar_panel_power / accumulator_energy

For example, using vanilla values:
70 * 60,000 / 5,000,000 = 0.84

If you are a nerd who likes units to match, the constant is 70 seconds.
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby impetus maximus » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:37 am

am i the only one that makes banks of solar panels, and accumulators separate?
i have no idea what ratios i use. nore do i care. if i need more stored power i add a bank of accumulators.
if i need more power to charge them, i add more solar panel banks. no calculator needed. :P
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby steinio » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:10 am

DaveMcW wrote:accumulator_ratio = 70 * solar_panel_power / accumulator_energy

For example, using vanilla values:
70 * 60,000 / 5,000,000 = 0.84

If you are a nerd who likes units to match, the constant is 70 seconds.


Does this ratio mean 1 solar panel to 0,84 accu or 1 accu to 0,84 solar panel. This always confused me.

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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Acarin » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:08 am

The commonly-used blueprint for a solar power 'farm' (the one with the Roboport in the middle) has 180 solar panels, 151 accumulators and 16 substations IIRC. The nice, neat, OCD-friendly result of laying down the solar panels and accumulators together is that i) the ratio is always correct, ii) there is enough space between adjacent farms to lay a rail line or concrete path, and iii) it extends your logistics and construction network.

But this is Factorio! It is a feature of the game that you can build your base however _you_ want to. Some people want to design everything from the ground up themselves, others (like me) are happy to use published blueprints or designs to free us up to concentrate on the meta-design (or "the bigger picture") and how entire sections will fit together and exchange resources.

0.84 is the calculated ratio (check out the old threads on Reddit if you want to see the various mathematical explanations and arguments), but that is simply the most efficient. You can lay down panels and accumulators in the shape of Pikachu all over your base if that's what appeals to you :-)
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby lpw » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:08 pm

So I couldn't find the blueprint string for this anywhere, so I built it myself and here it is, if anyone else is searching:

Code: Select all
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Zendule » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:57 am

lpw wrote:So I couldn't find the blueprint string for this anywhere, so I built it myself and here it is, if anyone else is searching:

Code: Select all
H4sIAAAAAAAA/5Wb3W7bOBBGXyXItbvgjEhKRuFnKdREWBhwpMB2gC2MvPs6+sk2srs831UveqLwzA85Etvn4eEwPLWHhx+7S9ef9+d9d9pdLn370u0e26en
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Thank you, I was very happy not to have to build this myself.
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Zaag » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:54 pm

With large solar panels mk3 and high capacity accumulators mk3 I calculate a ratio of 0.76

70 * 240,000 / 22,000,00 = 0,76363636363636363636363636363636

I'm using bob's mods of course.
If I have a good blueprint to share I'll do that
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Grimakar » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:57 am

impetus maximus wrote:am i the only one that makes banks of solar panels, and accumulators separate?
i have no idea what ratios i use. nore do i care. if i need more stored power i add a bank of accumulators.
if i need more power to charge them, i add more solar panel banks. no calculator needed. :P


+1
If the accus do not get fully loaded, then more solar, if the accus do not survive the night, more accus. I always have a buffer, so I will not get out of power. This whole ratio discussion is more or less funny, esp. when turret creeping a big nest.
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby OdinYggd » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:31 pm

Though the ideal ratio is right around 0.84 and I usually pattern in my own version of the roboport-center solar farm, I find it best to go heavy on the accumulators.

The reason is simple- nighttime biter raids and other surge loads. Better to have more battery than you need so that the accus are never ever anywhere near empty than to have them run out in the middle of the night during a heavy attack.

It also helps to have extra accus when you have your steam power configured as an emergency power- such that it won't start up till the accus run down to a certain point. The extras help avoid having the steam engines start up at all, keeping fuel consumption to a minimum.
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby golfmiketango » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:20 pm

I've been working on making a different kind of solar build -- one optimized for "fun", so to speak. Instead of min-maxing material and spatial costs, my goal is to optimize around playability concerns:

First, I hate the sound of accumulators so I have pushed them all into the middle of the build where they will be seen but not heard (as much).

Second, I don't like having to predict the future. So my build leaves space for a train track with signals in-between the tiles, in both the vertical and horizontal directions, and even enough room (well, not quite -- a small amount of futzing around with pieces is necessary) for a train to turn a corner within my solar farm.

Third, if I want to build some solar, I want it NOW. And, chances are, I want a LOT of it, more than I could carry in my inventory and anyhow to big to stand around waiting for personal roboport-bots to get it done. So my build greatly increases roboport density compared to, i.e., Madzuri's solar design, and leaves room to add even more roboports in the corners if necessary, so I can just shove everything required by my build in a provider chest, stamp down my blueprint, spray some bots, and leave.

Finally, I wanted something that was four-way rotationally symmetric, so that if I had to patch up a botched deployment, I wouldn't have to use the zoom command + squinting system to figure out if I had the right orientation when re-blueprinting.

Here is a picture
SolarBuild.png
Example of solar build
SolarBuild.png (2.74 MiB) Viewed 3036 times


Note that, although I'm using mods in the picture, none are required, this is a vanilla thing. I am leaving two tiles of space between the "stamps" but I could think of reasons to use different spacings ranging from no gap up to six tiles, depending on what I was trying to accomplish. Since there is ample roboport coverage overhanging the build, any reasonable spacing arrangement should work just fine.

And here is a blueprint
Code: Select all
H4sIAAAAAAAA/5Xa327iOhTF4Vepek0r/02MKp6lSmk0QqIJgiC1Qrz7QJyj0yGB/NZN56LfBMd7sePY/Wyftu262j69r0510226TX1YnU5N9VWvng/tttq/
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IIRC the blueprint includes some rail tiles for alignment. If not, you may wish to add some -- otherwise, your odds of randomly placing your solar farm in a position that will prevent you from laying rail between the tiles is 75% since you run a 50% chance of missing your mark in both the horizontal and the vertical dimension (unless you leave even more than two tiles of space between the builds, but then when you lay your rails they'll be asymmetrical and ugly).

I think the optimal way to deploy them is to have an existing robot network in place, and the required solar panels and accumulators in logistic storage, preferably nearby, but not too nearby, but be holding the required roboports and substations. This way, your personal roboport bots can quickly place the substations and roboports, leaving your network with the task of laying down the solar panels and accumulators. In a large build, with sufficient construction bots in the network, this approach will prevent you from being nagged about "missing robots" or "missing material for construction" and the build will go much faster as you won't be waiting for robots to build out roboports to bring portions of your build into the network. By leaving a bit of distance between your storage and you build, you can also prevent your network construction bots from sealing you into the build forcing you to pull it to pieces to get out.

The build has 84 accumulators and 100 solars (plus twelve substations and one roboport)
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Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby smith96 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:27 am

thanks for the post
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