Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Post all other topics which do not belong to any other category.

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby featherwinglove » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:58 pm

I have more accumulators. I always have something which throws it off. If nothing mod-related, it's laser turrets and biters following the advice of Lionel Richie :mrgreen:
featherwinglove
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:14 am

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Hansi123 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:54 pm

golfmiketango wrote:I've been working on making a different kind of solar build -- one optimized for "fun", so to speak. Instead of min-maxing material and spatial costs, my goal is to optimize around playability concerns:

First, I hate the sound of accumulators so I have pushed them all into the middle of the build where they will be seen but not heard (as much).

Second, I don't like having to predict the future. So my build leaves space for a train track with signals in-between the tiles, in both the vertical and horizontal directions, and even enough room (well, not quite -- a small amount of futzing around with pieces is necessary) for a train to turn a corner within my solar farm.

Third, if I want to build some solar, I want it NOW. And, chances are, I want a LOT of it, more than I could carry in my inventory and anyhow to big to stand around waiting for personal roboport-bots to get it done. So my build greatly increases roboport density compared to, i.e., Madzuri's solar design, and leaves room to add even more roboports in the corners if necessary, so I can just shove everything required by my build in a provider chest, stamp down my blueprint, spray some bots, and leave.

Finally, I wanted something that was four-way rotationally symmetric, so that if I had to patch up a botched deployment, I wouldn't have to use the zoom command + squinting system to figure out if I had the right orientation when re-blueprinting.

Here is a picture
The attachment SolarBuild.png is no longer available


Note that, although I'm using mods in the picture, none are required, this is a vanilla thing. I am leaving two tiles of space between the "stamps" but I could think of reasons to use different spacings ranging from no gap up to six tiles, depending on what I was trying to accomplish. Since there is ample roboport coverage overhanging the build, any reasonable spacing arrangement should work just fine.

And here is a blueprint
Code: Select all
H4sIAAAAAAAA/5Xa327iOhTF4Vepek0r/02MKp6lSmk0QqIJgiC1Qrz7QJyj0yGB/NZN56LfBMd7sePY/Wyftu262j69r0510226TX1YnU5N9VWvng/tttq/
7Kqm3j4vdu3h8tu2WZ2+Vy/WLn4uP9P5vJi1idPIqcOUDzVgWfJPN/yebB5ASS7rMb2o3oZf9vhx6KorGI3gNdfg8i+6dJ5cZBOnkVOHKR9qwLLkn25G9E4R
rJdqYItRde+XK8+WI3bJacGpH9F7UTTDLDg0C/zGIpYJy+FrgGbA5staZCO2Q+9AtBRG0I+Wda/IaV+u5f+0Wq+PX8dt1bX722zlGCx/p+C+DpJ2kjaKtgr2
Co4TeCaYS5wf9EQrxToXZHaX+bYKVosy65LpKGkvaatoo2Cn4KDgQsFpojAzeSt4Z2GrjHhDZ2MUpBjFV/BY/i9FUUoR1FbRRsFOuMWgXLhQcJooy0wrQrLk
Gerjxp7QkdO+wXkhmU5KppcaHNRe0lbRRsFOwUHBhYLTRGFmGpzHKUarx/JW3n09G6bMsNItJT1EzkqRg9pP6H370e7afTe9zGKDdsoogoILBaeJMd99vbNT
+HHf4i8LTF67luMJgkXOAYJpiwr2AnaCDYItBJvG0/a4o6A2EWB9+37C3+7YzkH8V85FBj5ccmTgMzEq2CvYCtgI1gk2CLYQbBrX43HESB76iPEtJ+FpBRfM
OTiBNNwhN/CVwCvYCtgI1vG7C8JlC8GmcTUetzD+NGOb1hHLa8ISDw3cYogK9gq2AjaCdYINgi3G9nEU0C5SgPXtWw0LQr9UMnytZEi18t0nZf8RYqdgI2Ar
WC/YOLYzqxVSjLxcYWW7ftXZxvUSywJLfysfn11YtgDE9xQpTBT231Z4ENBXyYObH84QLVty5CNEdnyVsIxYOirxMAOFJf5ocysfHx3Cqe9PDi3Zy8gn05bs
6/YH00gOlUetPWEZsXRU4mEGCkv80WaQ58Vm3TbXP804bP401XZ16n52l/+56eqv58X4KhfffNbf19fA89u+7o775un9rW4+/wJfwt938SEAAA==


IIRC the blueprint includes some rail tiles for alignment. If not, you may wish to add some -- otherwise, your odds of randomly placing your solar farm in a position that will prevent you from laying rail between the tiles is 75% since you run a 50% chance of missing your mark in both the horizontal and the vertical dimension (unless you leave even more than two tiles of space between the builds, but then when you lay your rails they'll be asymmetrical and ugly).

I think the optimal way to deploy them is to have an existing robot network in place, and the required solar panels and accumulators in logistic storage, preferably nearby, but not too nearby, but be holding the required roboports and substations. This way, your personal roboport bots can quickly place the substations and roboports, leaving your network with the task of laying down the solar panels and accumulators. In a large build, with sufficient construction bots in the network, this approach will prevent you from being nagged about "missing robots" or "missing material for construction" and the build will go much faster as you won't be waiting for robots to build out roboports to bring portions of your build into the network. By leaving a bit of distance between your storage and you build, you can also prevent your network construction bots from sealing you into the build forcing you to pull it to pieces to get out.

The build has 84 accumulators and 100 solars (plus twelve substations and one roboport)


Soo i was was building your setup and realized it wasn't exactly what i wanted, even though it is a cool setup.

I took some inspiration from you and came up with this:
My suggestion
20171015204727_1.jpg
20171015204727_1.jpg (1.06 MiB) Viewed 589 times


It has
164 Solar panel
141 Accumulators
Which gives an ratio of 0.86, a bit higher than the optimal but in my opinion just perfect.

One of the biggest improvement of this design is the efficient use of space and substations.

If anybody has some suggestions to make this design even better please let me know :D

String
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
Hansi123
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby SuicideJunkie » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:22 pm

I found a 1:1 ratio is a great fit for my needs; that allows me to reserve a hearty 10% margin before the emergency power logic kicks in.

Between laser turrets and 30 MW of partial duty cycle factories, power use is quite spiky.
SuicideJunkie
Inserter
Inserter
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:17 pm

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Pascali » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:19 pm

What is the optimal ratio for solar per accumulator?
Pascali
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby steinio » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:25 pm

Pascali wrote:What is the optimal ratio for solar per accumulator?


Nobody knows so far.
ImageImage
Transport Belt Repair Man
My little mods: Link | My favourite mods: Bob's Mods | Angel's Mods | Yuoki Railway Core | EvoGUI | Logistic Train Network
Factorio Cheat Sheets by ranhothchord updated by Jellewho

View unread Posts
User avatar
steinio
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
 
Posts: 1418
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:19 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby golfmiketango » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:36 am

steinio wrote:
Pascali wrote:What is the optimal ratio for solar per accumulator?


Nobody knows so far.


I think it's pretty funny how at night all your lights come on. If you've been spamming lights everywhere, they can easily add up to become quite power hungry which absolutely will throw off the optimal solar-accumulator ratio if you'd like to not run out of power with minimum solar deployment.

Also, is it just me or do biters tend to get more aggressive at night? Maybe I'm just imagining that because I let power crap out too often: they might look more aggressive to me because they are breaking all my toys, when the actual reason is I turned all the turrets off and they simply took advantage of my hospitality.
golfmiketango
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:48 am

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Pascali » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:59 pm

Nobody knows? Why? I read many different things like 25 solars on 21 accumulators. There will be a perfect ratio!?
Pascali
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Acacel » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:07 pm

When you do the math in 0.15 was it the 25 to 21 but:

it depents on what you want to have? best solar use or some only over days reloadable backup for peaks in engery consumption.
So in the end everyone wants to achive a different thing and therefore thers never the perfect ratio to find
Acacel
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:10 pm

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Pascali » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:33 am

o.k., so the optimal ratio without energy using is 25:21 solar:accu?
Pascali
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Koub » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:07 pm

Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.
Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3192
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Location: France

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby golfmiketango » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:20 am

Koub wrote:https://wiki.factorio.com/Power_production#Optimal_ratio


I'm not sure if steinio was kidding, but FTR that's based on a pretty crude algebraic model of power consumption with no spikes and no other power sources. If your game is more complex than that (it is, trust me) then it becomes murkier. To really model this in terms of risk-of-ruin, I think you'd need to employ sort of variance analysis...

However, the good news is, the presence of secondary sources of power, I believe, would tend to prop up the validity of the simplistic model in the wiki. If your didn't use switches or something to prioritize accumulators over backup sources, however... yeah, you probably need an economics textbook to figure out your true optimal solar ratio :)

In practice, of course, this is just my sick idea of fun mental masturbation... the wiki ratio is a fine starting point and empirical tweaking from there is almost always going to be the way to go if you really want to fine tune it.
golfmiketango
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:48 am

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Frightning » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:49 am

If your power draw is constant, then the optimal ratio is 25 Solar panels to 21 Accumulators. If there is variance, than you need to know what the greatest possible drain over the timespan from beginning of dusk to end of dawn is (i.e. entire timespan that Solar panels are not producing 100% energy) will be. In practice, running a bit accumulator heavy would ensure that small amounts of variance won't leave you starving for energy in the morning. However, I never had issues with volatility in power drain with solar because I usually had a least a little bit more average power production than I had average demand, and that excess+accompanying storage capacity from matching accumulators was always enough to make to the next day.
Frightning
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
 
Posts: 698
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:27 pm

Re: Accumulator / Solar panel ratio

Postby Koub » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:06 am

Actually the variability harms also when it occurs during daytime, especially if your power generation is very close to your average consumption : it will prevent your accus from filling, and you risk blackout the following night.

Always tailor your power generation for known (or expected) peak consumption, add an emergency backup with an alert as soon as it kicks in (so that you know your power production has become insufficient and you should add some more panels/accus asap) and you should be 100% safe.

The solar/accus ratio always assumes a constant average consumtion.
Lack of solar panels, and your accus might not be filled enough to ensure no blackout next night.
Lack of accus, and you might not have enough energy stored to prevent blackout.
And have excess of both panels and accus to account for variability, but keeping the same ratio is OK.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.
Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3192
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Location: France

Previous

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: alienwombat and 19 guests