0.16 Map generation Feedback

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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby wren6991 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:47 am

Small update: I am 12 hours in on this map, and have not found a single iron deposit. I am running out of iron to defend my base, and can't afford military research because I need to keep the turrets running. I have radars pretty far out from my base, but still nothing.

This terrain update seems to have broken the game balance.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Kewlhotrod » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:11 am

Serenity wrote:
MrHick wrote:Seams fine to me, I kind of like it.
.15 was way too many resources at the start I think that searching for them at the start is not a bad deal.

Yeah, but it's a bit too far in the other direction. Like only having 30k or so coal and half a dozen a miners.

It's not even consistent.
No coal or stone, but with the same setting you can get several gigantic oil patches


why is that a bad thing? world generation of resources shouldn't be linear
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Lav » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:40 am

Kewlhotrod wrote:why is that a bad thing? world generation of resources shouldn't be linear

It's a bad thing because when you set "very rare / very small" settings for a resource, you don't want to see several humongous patches in your immediate vicinity. And with 0.16 this is exactly what happens with oil and uranium. Not even as exception, this is typical map generator's behavior.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Kewlhotrod » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:43 am

Lav wrote:It's a bad thing because when you set "very rare / very small" settings for a resource, you don't want to see several humongous patches in your immediate vicinity. And with 0.16 this is exactly what happens with oil and uranium. Not even as exception, this is typical map generator's behavior.



yeah I see what you mean, iv only generated one map but after looking at several oil and uranium needs to be more rare as they are more permanent building.

edit -- although come to think of it, because my game was low on coal i'm forced to use oil as my main source burning fuel, it kinda evens itself out and feels balanced, I normally never use oil as fuel. :roll:
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby xng » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:06 pm

The shape of the continents are more interesting in 0.16, which is really nice, but the rest comes up very short.

I don't think that the devs ever during these 8 months since last patch really started a map on default to test it out because I almost always miss one or two basics ores in the start area, uranium is normally closer by than iron or coal (that only exist right next to some biter base) and there are about 2-2.5 times as many copper patches than iron, coal or stone. Regenerating 30 times or more helps but it still feels cheaty and annoying that you just can't start a game and play and trust you won't have to restart 10 minutes later.

It feels like we're back to 0.12 again.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby pichutarius » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:16 pm

The map generation doesn't look like perlin noise to me. Anyone know the algorithm?

Anyway, i dislike the new map gen. i play on low frequency high water. No more ocean and continent, just long corridor everywhere, yucks. For me i prefer old perlin noise, and sum up all different frequency, creating fractal like landscape. (No more frequency setting for water) This creates features from small scale to big scale.

Untitled.png
Untitled.png (11.2 KiB) Viewed 929 times

(generate using mathematica)
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Avezo » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:47 pm

Image

I miss being able to make map like this. Just saying.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby HurkWurk » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:10 pm

souds like side effects from their reordering of resources so that copper wasnt more common than everything else due to alphabetical sorting.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Acacel » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:19 pm

I´m playing on a Railworld and have also the problem that i have not found some new coal, but already about 10 M uranium and over 15.000% oil (8.000% in one Field) and all this in a range from 2 Radars from the Start.
Seems like i also need to burn the oil too power my base until I can use this crazy amount uranium.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Serenity » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:55 pm

I've switched to RSO now. Much better and less frustrating :)
Oil patches are a bit small, bit I increased their size in the config file
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby mulark » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:17 am

I've also switched to RSO but with custom settings that bring the ore freq/size in line with my .15 settings. The .16 update seems to bring the ore gen to be wayyy more scarce, so much so that it breaks my evil plan. The size of water seems to be a bit bigger as well.
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Mapgenerator Oil Crude not working

Postby cybernoise » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:25 am

hi
ahve someone expierienced the odds with the oil crudes in mapgen ? when i set the size very small the oil patches are still very big in size ... and when i put iton very high it seems alittle bit smaller... i dont want to hav ein the start zone a field with ~40 oil patches but jsut 3-5 , but it seems the mapgen doesn't do that anymore
here a screen with the starting area map preview when oil size is set to very small ...

Image
the first oil setup is completly huge instead of very small...


Image
These are the Gen Settings.


Did some see that already ?
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Koub » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:34 am

[Koub] Merged into 0.16 map generation topic, because I felt it totally fits.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Dixi » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:50 am

I'm also unsatisfied with 0.16 map generation.
I've carefully read whole thread.

It seems to me that quite a few players, me included, likes to have a base between several big lakes. So we can defend passages, not whole square perimeter of a base. Actual reasons might be different - including aesthetics, water accessibility and others.

0.15 map generator was able to create such maps.

More terrain types, and cliffs are cool, of course. But new maps with big central area with one small starting personal lake is not fun to play.

I think it could be nice to see different kind of maps. Current 0.16 generator gives a map made of small to medium spots of different types of terrain. Water is always a problem. On standard settings it's a lot of small lakes. If we add water we are getting more and more small lakes, until they merge in bigger lakes (like in northen europe), and we are getting more then half of distant resource spots eaten by lakes (since we can't mine underwater).

1st, we really like to have previous 0.15 map generator availabe as an option. I think it's not so hard to implement. It might be unable to place cliffs (we can live without them, while), but I think it should work well with all new terrain types, since addons like AlienBiomes was working well in 0.15.

In a future more realystic terrain design could be nice to see.
By more realistic, I mean existance of rivers, bigger lakes, some kind of mountains (made by several circles of cliffs around an area).
Instead of small patches of different terrains, connected at random, we better have, for sample: big river from the east, and plains behind the river, mountains to the north and really big forest to the southwest. In between of those bigger objects - smaller patches of different terrains (like now on 0.16 maps).

Resource distribution is more personal choice - some people like a lot of them, to avoid repetitive task of building new harvester spots, while others prefer more distant and spare resource spots. So I think new resource generation is OK, might be a little too much Uranium and a little too few Iron (or Stone, in some cases).

About RSO. It might be good, but it's addon, and I'm still planning to complete all base Steam Factorio achievements.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby cybernoise » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:36 pm

Actually the 0.16.x Mapgen is very nice and very detailed. (maybe Add Simple/advanced version (0.15/0.16) to not confuse new player to much)
but the new generator seems to not fullfill the needs. Generator 0.15 had much more viability when it comes to certain landscapes. Like atoll, island (very rare but possible), more tighter map- or wider map variations.

Also what i mentioned early is that the ressource spwaning system isn't working correctly either.
As in my example above, no matter how you customize the oil spawn settings in seems always to be the same pattern. Some may work, like frequenzy but the difference between rare and very often seems to be to less esp for railworlds.
However Size is not working anymore no matter what i pick its always very big like 40patches even at the startzone. esp. in a Railworld you would want to build at least a rail to the oil and let it transportate.

So to summarize i think the new design of the mapgen is very good because of the new details that you can setup the terrain now ! so you can have different areas on your map like deserts, mountains and oceans and temperate.
Which is very very great especially for Railworld ! :) thumps up
But the Mapgen needs an eye, and very high and very seldom may need a higher range from each other (at least for railworlds, would my personal request)

Thank you.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby vtx » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:08 am

I don't like the new map gen. I liked to play in a map with large body of water and large landmass now it's impossible to have. I tried for 2 hours to get a good map, tried a few settings and allways get same result.

water : very low & very large = water world with small corridor of land get worst as you get away.
water : very low & large = plenty of small lake connected with small corridor and as you get away water prevail.

I guess water have a similar system as to cliff to detect it based on elevation. I think something wrong somewhere at least for me.

Edit : seem the value is reversed.

If I set very small starting area the first lake execpt the one in starting area is 1000 tiles away.
If I set very big there plenty of lakes inside the same 1000 tiles square.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Blood Angel » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:17 am

the problem is that in 0.15 very high settings in size and frequency give a lot of resources and big size for each deposit. In 0.16.6 very high settings give only big deposit in home area and drops outside home are. (sorry for copy from viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55316#p326030 )
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Avezo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:01 pm

I were thinking, perhaps it would be a good idea to have separate settings for resources in the starting area and for the rest of the world.
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby Serenity » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:16 pm

Avezo wrote:I were thinking, perhaps it would be a good idea to have separate settings for resources in the starting area and for the rest of the world.

Yeah, that would be great. RSO does that too and it's so good
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Postby manpapper » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:46 pm

Is there a way to have a map more like the ones of 0.15?

Will they modify the map generation a little because i don't really like the new maps...
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