0.16 Map generation Feedback

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zOldBulldog
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by zOldBulldog » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:48 am

Frightning wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:22 am
joseailton wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:43 am
Avezo wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:50 pm
I wish there was an option for "never create mixed ore patches"
When you set your mining drills, just put them one tile after the mixed ores, so you end up ignoring the mixed parts.
This doesn't really work nicely when the ore-to-ore boundaries aren't straight vertical or horizontal, the filtering via Splitter is the slickest solution available now. Before that existed, Filter Inserters were the way to deal with that problem (you only need 2 if the throughput of the boundary miners was low enough, and if not, Stack Filter Inserters could be used instead).

Frankly I like that mixed ore patches exist in the game precisely because they force the player to wrestle with this very problem.
I found mixed ore patches fun for about 10 minutes. After that they became annoying. A map generation option to include/exclude them would be desirable.

The issue is that filter inserters hurt throughput and splitters with the filter turned on sometimes stall when there is backpressure on the wrong ore.

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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by Frightning » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:06 pm

zOldBulldog wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:48 am
Frightning wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:22 am
joseailton wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:43 am
Avezo wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:50 pm
I wish there was an option for "never create mixed ore patches"
When you set your mining drills, just put them one tile after the mixed ores, so you end up ignoring the mixed parts.
This doesn't really work nicely when the ore-to-ore boundaries aren't straight vertical or horizontal, the filtering via Splitter is the slickest solution available now. Before that existed, Filter Inserters were the way to deal with that problem (you only need 2 if the throughput of the boundary miners was low enough, and if not, Stack Filter Inserters could be used instead).

Frankly I like that mixed ore patches exist in the game precisely because they force the player to wrestle with this very problem.
I found mixed ore patches fun for about 10 minutes. After that they became annoying. A map generation option to include/exclude them would be desirable.

The issue is that filter inserters hurt throughput and splitters with the filter turned on sometimes stall when there is backpressure on the wrong ore.
I'm all for giving the player more control of map generation as that allows people to tailor the experience to their preferences.

By the way, you can (all but) eliminate the backpressure problem by giving the outputs of the filtering setup mechanical priority over ore from the respective mono-ore parts of the patch. Easy way with belts to do this is using sideloading (and you can use a splitter+underground belt to sideload on both sides and thus still utilize the full throughput of the belt.

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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by zOldBulldog » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:05 pm

Frightning wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:06 pm
zOldBulldog wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:48 am
Frightning wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:22 am
joseailton wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:43 am
Avezo wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:50 pm
I wish there was an option for "never create mixed ore patches"
When you set your mining drills, just put them one tile after the mixed ores, so you end up ignoring the mixed parts.
This doesn't really work nicely when the ore-to-ore boundaries aren't straight vertical or horizontal, the filtering via Splitter is the slickest solution available now. Before that existed, Filter Inserters were the way to deal with that problem (you only need 2 if the throughput of the boundary miners was low enough, and if not, Stack Filter Inserters could be used instead).

Frankly I like that mixed ore patches exist in the game precisely because they force the player to wrestle with this very problem.
I found mixed ore patches fun for about 10 minutes. After that they became annoying. A map generation option to include/exclude them would be desirable.

The issue is that filter inserters hurt throughput and splitters with the filter turned on sometimes stall when there is backpressure on the wrong ore.
I'm all for giving the player more control of map generation as that allows people to tailor the experience to their preferences.

By the way, you can (all but) eliminate the backpressure problem by giving the outputs of the filtering setup mechanical priority over ore from the respective mono-ore parts of the patch. Easy way with belts to do this is using sideloading (and you can use a splitter+underground belt to sideload on both sides and thus still utilize the full throughput of the belt.
I don't think you understood what I meant:

- If I am NOT CONSUMING one of the ores but want to consume the other full force... it is possible that the splitter will get enough piled up *in the splitter* of the ore I don't want and thus refuse to keep spitting out the ore I do want.

I am sure there might be some design (maybe with multiple splitters) that would allow ensuring the flow of the other ore when one isn't being consumed. But I can't imagine one.

Maybe what is needed is some kind of infinite sink that can take the overflow from clogged splitters. Sure, it would be a waste of resources, but it is better than having a design work for 30 minutes then die without you noticing. Yes, this has happened to me. Annoying as hell. Now, unless I am certain to have enough consumption of both ores... I no longer bother mining sections of mixed ore.

Workable, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth anyway. I assume it does the same to others. I'll look forward to the option to not get mixed ores when it happens someday.

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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by Oktokolo » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:38 pm

zOldBulldog wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:05 pm
Maybe what is needed is some kind of infinite sink that can take the overflow from clogged splitters.
Try a stockpile made of a shit-ton of chests (vanilla) or use something added by a mod for storing the excess until it is finally needed.
There seems to be no mod adding a proper stockpile (basically a warehouse with last-in-first-out characteristics) yet. But warehouses work good enough too.

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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by zOldBulldog » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:22 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:38 pm
zOldBulldog wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:05 pm
Maybe what is needed is some kind of infinite sink that can take the overflow from clogged splitters.
Try a stockpile made of a shit-ton of chests (vanilla) or use something added by a mod for storing the excess until it is finally needed.
There seems to be no mod adding a proper stockpile (basically a warehouse with last-in-first-out characteristics) yet. But warehouses work good enough too.
Yep, but unfortunately like every other available solution it is just plain annoying :)

Best to just abandon those ores unless you are certain of consuming them.

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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by Frightning » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:11 am

zOldBulldog wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:05 pm
Frightning wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:06 pm
zOldBulldog wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:48 am
Frightning wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:22 am
joseailton wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:43 am


When you set your mining drills, just put them one tile after the mixed ores, so you end up ignoring the mixed parts.
This doesn't really work nicely when the ore-to-ore boundaries aren't straight vertical or horizontal, the filtering via Splitter is the slickest solution available now. Before that existed, Filter Inserters were the way to deal with that problem (you only need 2 if the throughput of the boundary miners was low enough, and if not, Stack Filter Inserters could be used instead).

Frankly I like that mixed ore patches exist in the game precisely because they force the player to wrestle with this very problem.
I found mixed ore patches fun for about 10 minutes. After that they became annoying. A map generation option to include/exclude them would be desirable.

The issue is that filter inserters hurt throughput and splitters with the filter turned on sometimes stall when there is backpressure on the wrong ore.
I'm all for giving the player more control of map generation as that allows people to tailor the experience to their preferences.

By the way, you can (all but) eliminate the backpressure problem by giving the outputs of the filtering setup mechanical priority over ore from the respective mono-ore parts of the patch. Easy way with belts to do this is using sideloading (and you can use a splitter+underground belt to sideload on both sides and thus still utilize the full throughput of the belt.
I don't think you understood what I meant:

- If I am NOT CONSUMING one of the ores but want to consume the other full force... it is possible that the splitter will get enough piled up *in the splitter* of the ore I don't want and thus refuse to keep spitting out the ore I do want.

I am sure there might be some design (maybe with multiple splitters) that would allow ensuring the flow of the other ore when one isn't being consumed. But I can't imagine one.

Maybe what is needed is some kind of infinite sink that can take the overflow from clogged splitters. Sure, it would be a waste of resources, but it is better than having a design work for 30 minutes then die without you noticing. Yes, this has happened to me. Annoying as hell. Now, unless I am certain to have enough consumption of both ores... I no longer bother mining sections of mixed ore.

Workable, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth anyway. I assume it does the same to others. I'll look forward to the option to not get mixed ores when it happens someday.
I did understand, and yes it is possible for things to still get backed up, but if you exploit mechanical priority it's very unlikely to happen in practice (literally only way is if total usage of the less used ore in the mixed patch is less than is being produced by the miners on the overlap). In practice I often haven't even bothered to worry about mechanical priority and still didn't really have any major issues (sometimes it would backup, but usually only if I was grossly over-producing only one of the ores relative to usage).

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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by Joe78man » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:52 pm

I personally see that the ores in starting area are very low and scarce. I don't mind expanding or making my way through bugs to clear some patches, but this is becomming ridiculous.

I'm pressing regenerate over and over, just to see patches of ~700k of coal, copper and iron, some times no iron, some times no rocks in kms, some times no coal, totally unplayable. Also some times there is no <random ore> in sight to even expand later, meaning that if I could make it, I'd have no big patch to expand to later because I'd have to kill thousands of bugs just to find resources I don't have to make the guns to kill them.

The algorithms are not ok.
https://ibb.co/cwf2X0

This is the average starting area:
https://ibb.co/geQY5L

An unplayable one:
https://ibb.co/cdqBs0

Usin default settings:
https://ibb.co/gu5Bs0

Something is not right. I end up using creative mod to fix the starting area or pressing regenerate until I find a decent map.

Any thoughts? thanks, guys
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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by Frightning » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:12 pm

Joe78man wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:52 pm
I personally see that the ores in starting area are very low and scarce. I don't mind expanding or making my way through bugs to clear some patches, but this is becomming ridiculous.

I'm pressing regenerate over and over, just to see patches of ~700k of coal, copper and iron, some times no iron, some times no rocks in kms, some times no coal, totally unplayable. Also some times there is no <random ore> in sight to even expand later, meaning that if I could make it, I'd have no big patch to expand to later because I'd have to kill thousands of bugs just to find resources I don't have to make the guns to kill them.

The algorithms are not ok.
https://ibb.co/cwf2X0

This is the average starting area:
https://ibb.co/geQY5L

An unplayable one:
https://ibb.co/cdqBs0

Usin default settings:
https://ibb.co/gu5Bs0

Something is not right. I end up using creative mod to fix the starting area or pressing regenerate until I find a decent map.

Any thoughts? thanks, guys
As nice as Very Low Frequency is for getting large, spaced out patches (train friendly). It does cause a LOT of variability with how your starting area will be. The unplayable one is probably actually doable, but certainly not comfortable (big question is whether or not you can find oil that's accessible nearby enough, if so, you could switch from Coal-fed Steam to Solar or even Solid Fuel-fed Steam to get by power-wise). By the looks of it, most of your starting Coal patch got 'hollowed out' by the water (water-gen step overwrote it).
One thing that can help is adjusting the size of the starting area (this affects how close the initial biter bases can be to your start), making it larger will give plenty of space for RNG to spawn what you need near enough for you to be able to get it without having to fight through a sea of red (which might be impractical without at least the 4 basic ores and perhaps without oil as well). Conversely, setting starting area smaller makes biters closer (and forces you to have to deal with them much sooner; I enjoy Very Small starts with small but frequent biter bases if I want a game where I will fight them early and often).

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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by Joe78man » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:19 pm

Frightning wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:12 pm

As nice as Very Low Frequency is for getting large, spaced out patches (train friendly). It does cause a LOT of variability with how your starting area will be. The unplayable one is probably actually doable, but certainly not comfortable (big question is whether or not you can find oil that's accessible nearby enough, if so, you could switch from Coal-fed Steam to Solar or even Solid Fuel-fed Steam to get by power-wise). By the looks of it, most of your starting Coal patch got 'hollowed out' by the water (water-gen step overwrote it).
One thing that can help is adjusting the size of the starting area (this affects how close the initial biter bases can be to your start), making it larger will give plenty of space for RNG to spawn what you need near enough for you to be able to get it without having to fight through a sea of red (which might be impractical without at least the 4 basic ores and perhaps without oil as well). Conversely, setting starting area smaller makes biters closer (and forces you to have to deal with them much sooner; I enjoy Very Small starts with small but frequent biter bases if I want a game where I will fight them early and often).
Solar is an option, that's something I didn't considered it, I'd have to rely on trees for fuel for the starting base.

In many cases I've seen decent ore patches only behind enemy lines, very far, meaning that like it or not, you don't have enough iron/copper to expand or arm yourself to eliminate the natives to extract more ore.

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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by Frightning » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:35 pm

Joe78man wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:19 pm
Frightning wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:12 pm

As nice as Very Low Frequency is for getting large, spaced out patches (train friendly). It does cause a LOT of variability with how your starting area will be. The unplayable one is probably actually doable, but certainly not comfortable (big question is whether or not you can find oil that's accessible nearby enough, if so, you could switch from Coal-fed Steam to Solar or even Solid Fuel-fed Steam to get by power-wise). By the looks of it, most of your starting Coal patch got 'hollowed out' by the water (water-gen step overwrote it).
One thing that can help is adjusting the size of the starting area (this affects how close the initial biter bases can be to your start), making it larger will give plenty of space for RNG to spawn what you need near enough for you to be able to get it without having to fight through a sea of red (which might be impractical without at least the 4 basic ores and perhaps without oil as well). Conversely, setting starting area smaller makes biters closer (and forces you to have to deal with them much sooner; I enjoy Very Small starts with small but frequent biter bases if I want a game where I will fight them early and often).
Solar is an option, that's something I didn't considered it, I'd have to rely on trees for fuel for the starting base.

In many cases I've seen decent ore patches only behind enemy lines, very far, meaning that like it or not, you don't have enough iron/copper to expand or arm yourself to eliminate the natives to extract more ore.
You'd be surprised what you can do w/ just a few 100k of iron and not even 100k of copper if you prioritize military techs (assuming default recipe and tech costs). At the start of the game, biters are all Small biters, so only hard thing is dealing with excessive numbers of them and any Medium/Big worms that spawned. Grenades are the only no oil solution for big worms (requires some Raw Fish to be able to tank enough to kill a Big worm though), however, if you have oil, then the Flamethrower and Rocket launcher are quite accessible and (as a pair) very effective against all manner of early enemies (SMG is probably still best v. biters themselves tbh). Gun turrets are also really handy for early pushes (be sure pack some repair packs as well as plenty of ammo). You also really don't need much Coal to get up and running into Solar+Accumulators (100k is more than enough if you're frugal and rush the relevant techs), and you barely need any Stone (even a few 100s will do, which can be had, in worst case, by mining rocks).

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Re: 0.16 Map generation Feedback

Post by AyleeJenn » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:08 am

I can only echo what frightening wrote. I have looked into the map generator some more and the maps it generated for me were up to now all continuously playable. Yes, some might be tricky and require creative thinking and clever usage of your resources but the maps are very much playable. But then again isnt clever usage of in-game options and creative thinking part of the factorio experience?

The only genuinely unplayable map that I was ever able to create was when I forced the map generator to not create any terrain and have a water only map. And that map was only unplayable because there was no where to spawn the player :D

At the same time, I understand that the improvements made to the map generator are made with good reason but please do leave the option to use the old map generator logics if so desired so that people can also re-create their favorite maps from earlier versions of the game on later versions.

Thank you for your consideration and happy gaming in this wonderful creation of a game.

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