The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

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The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby Zavian » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:17 pm

Since 0.16 overhauled terrain generation and enabled a preview of the map, I thought I'd share my very first spawn.
Island_Start.png
Island_Start.png (3.27 MiB) Viewed 1105 times


Edit: The next map, after pressing restart had 16k coal in the starting area. That might have been enough to get started, but I passed on that. The third map had no coal at all. (It's was probably underwater

The fourth map had enough coal, iron and copper. So I started playing. Then I discovered that it had no stone. (There are some rocks I can clear, so it's playable, but looks like I'll have quite a hike/car ride to the nearest stone).
No.Stone.png
No.Stone.png (75.19 KiB) Viewed 1073 times
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Re: The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby Koub » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:39 pm

Your generator settings, or, even better, the map exchange string, would help diagnose if it's "explainable" or abnormal.
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Re: The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby Zavian » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:47 pm

Well I don't consider it a bug, more a 'feature' of the terrain generation algorithms. (That said, I do consider island starts/starts with no coal to be undesirable and something the devs might want to fix).

I also consider the no coal/no stone to be easily explained. They could be underwater.

Map settings were railworld preset, with water increased to normal frequency, and very big. Note that normal settings for railworld have most resources including stone and coal as very low frequency.

Map exchange string for the island start.
Code: Select all
>>>eNpjYBBgYGBwZWBm5WFJzk/MYWRh5krOLyhILdLNL0oF8jiTi0pT
UnXzM3OYWJjZUlKLU4tKmJmZWVIywTRXal5qbqVuUmJxKhMzM2t6UWJ
xMVCYI7MoPw9qAktxYl4KUIy1uCQ/DyTAWlKUmgpSxV1alJiXWZoLUg
g0nYFxrdKL7IYWOQYQ/l/PYPD/PwgDWReAjgRhIAAqAwrAAGtyTmZaG
gODgiMIMzIyVousc39YNcWeESKv5wBlfICKROyGijxohTIiVkMZHYeh
DIf5MEY9jNHvwGgMBp/tEQyIXSVAk6GWcDggGBDJFpAkI2Pv260Lvh8
7YMf4Z+XHS75JCfaMmbKhvgKl7+2A0uxADYxMcGLWTBDYCfMBA8zMB/
ZQqZv2jGfPgMAbe0ZWkA4REOFgASQOeAODR4APyFrQAyQUZBhgTrODG
SPiwJgGBt9gPnkMY1y2R/eHigOjDchwORBxAkSALYS7jBHKjHSASEgi
ZIFajRiQrU9BeO4kzMbDSFajuUEF5gYTByxeQBNRQQp4LpA9KXDiBTP
cEcAQvMAO4wHjlpkBAT7Yb+pPagIA4CmTNA==<<<


Map exchange string for the map I'm playing.
Code: Select all
>>>eNpjYBBgYGBwZWBm5WFJzk/MYWRh5krOLyhILdLNL0oF8jiTi0pT
UnXzM3OYWJjZUlKLU4tKmJmZWVIywTRXal5qbqVuUmJxKhMzM2t6UWJ
xMVCYI7MoPw9qAktxYl4KUIy1uCQ/DyTAWlKUmgpSxV1alJiXWZoLUg
g0nYGxtenFm4YWOQYQ/l/PYPD/PwgDWReAjgRhIAAqAwrAAGtyTmZaG
gODgiMIMzIyVousc39YNcWeESKv5wBlfICKROyGijxohTIiVkMZHYeh
DIf5MEY9jNHvwGgMBp/tEQyIXSVAk6GWcDggGBDJFpAkI2Pv260Lvh8
7YMf4Z+XHS75JCfaMmbKhvgKl7+2A0uxADYxMcGLWTBDYCfMBA8zMB/
ZQqZv2jGfPgMAbe0ZWkA4REOFgASQOeAODR4APyFrQAyQUZBhgTrODG
SPiwJgGBt9gPnkMY1y2R/eHigOjDchwORBxAkSALYS7jBHKjHSASEgi
ZIFajRiQrU9BeO4kzMbDSFajuUEF5gYTByxeQBNRQQp4LpA9KXDiBTP
cEcAQvMAO4wHjlpkBAT7Yd69/xAkAreiT7Q==<<<
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Re: The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby Koub » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:17 pm

Zavian wrote:That said, I do consider island starts/starts with no coal to be undesirable and something the devs might want to fix).

Actually, the island start thing is currently considered a "not a bug" "not a feature" "not a work as intended", but just a "sometimes shit happens", like when you blow up on the first click on a minesweeper-style game
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Re: The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby Zavian » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:48 pm

Yeah I'm aware that island starts aren't considered a bug. And your starting coal or stone patch ending up being underwater could also be considered a case of "shit happens".

It actually turns out that the map I was playing was also a big island start, with no stone patch. And I'm not keen enough to clear rocks to make enough landfill to get to some stone.

The new resource generation settings seem very variable. I've generated maps with a oil patch with a combined yield of 15000% visible on the preview (and another medium sized patch as well), then using exactly the same settings generated a new map with only one patch with 4 oil wells on the preview (iirc oil was set to low frequency, and medium patch size). Stone seems very rare, and copper seems more common than iron, at least on previews of maps with lots of water.

I'm actually wondering whether the resource rebalance referenced int he friday facts, and the changelog means that stone patches are now very rare because we don't need much stone for a typical game. That seems like it could easily lead to someone getting unlucky and starting on an large island with no stone. A better strategy to "balance" the resources would be to make stone patches smaller/less rich, but still occur as frequently as iron and copper.
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Re: The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby Serenity » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:55 pm

Not a fan of the water generation. I loved relatively low frequency, but large water before. That generated continents separated by land bridges you could build relatively narrow walls across. But with 0.16 you're most likely to get lakes everywhere. Very low, very big comes closest, but the land generated tends to be pretty small and fragmented. Small islands are frequent with that setting. I just don't really see continents and oceans anymore. At least not the way they used to be.
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Re: The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby aober93 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:09 pm

Damn that new maps look interesting :D
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Re: The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby agmike » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:15 pm

Serenity wrote:Not a fan of the water generation. I loved relatively low frequency, but large water before. That generated continents separated by land bridges you could build relatively narrow walls across. But with 0.16 you're most likely to get lakes everywhere. Very low, very big comes closest, but the land generated tends to be pretty small and fragmented. Small islands are frequent with that setting. I just don't really see continents and oceans anymore. At least not the way they used to be.


This is my least favorite part of the new system. I used to like seas, but now I can only get lots of puddles. I also find step up between normal and big too large: for example with normal cliff size I can rarely get some isolated ones, but with big its suddenly a maze of cliffs right in the starting area.

The new biome generation is awesome, and resource generation is fixed by ever reliable RSO mod :D
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Re: The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby zenos14 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:47 am

agmike wrote:
Serenity wrote:Not a fan of the water generation. I loved relatively low frequency, but large water before. That generated continents separated by land bridges you could build relatively narrow walls across. But with 0.16 you're most likely to get lakes everywhere. Very low, very big comes closest, but the land generated tends to be pretty small and fragmented. Small islands are frequent with that setting. I just don't really see continents and oceans anymore. At least not the way they used to be.


This is my least favorite part of the new system. I used to like seas, but now I can only get lots of puddles. I also find step up between normal and big too large: for example with normal cliff size I can rarely get some isolated ones, but with big its suddenly a maze of cliffs right in the starting area.

Same, I love having a large body of water near me when I start, but now the world is just full of small lakes and it's just annoying, I'm contemplating generating maps in .15 then jumping over to .16 just so I know I'll have a start area I like
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Re: The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby torne » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:57 pm

Koub wrote:
Zavian wrote:That said, I do consider island starts/starts with no coal to be undesirable and something the devs might want to fix).

Actually, the island start thing is currently considered a "not a bug" "not a feature" "not a work as intended", but just a "sometimes shit happens", like when you blow up on the first click on a minesweeper-style game


Random fun fact: the original Windows Minesweeper actually makes sure you never blow up on the first click by moving the mine out of the way: http://www.techuser.net/mineclick.html
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Re: The obligatory terrain generation rework discussion thread

Postby bergi9 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:45 pm

zenos14 wrote:
agmike wrote:
Serenity wrote:Not a fan of the water generation. I loved relatively low frequency, but large water before. That generated continents separated by land bridges you could build relatively narrow walls across. But with 0.16 you're most likely to get lakes everywhere. Very low, very big comes closest, but the land generated tends to be pretty small and fragmented. Small islands are frequent with that setting. I just don't really see continents and oceans anymore. At least not the way they used to be.


This is my least favorite part of the new system. I used to like seas, but now I can only get lots of puddles. I also find step up between normal and big too large: for example with normal cliff size I can rarely get some isolated ones, but with big its suddenly a maze of cliffs right in the starting area.

Same, I love having a large body of water near me when I start, but now the world is just full of small lakes and it's just annoying, I'm contemplating generating maps in .15 then jumping over to .16 just so I know I'll have a start area I like


@zenos14 how you do it? if i generate a map in .15 then jump over to .16 and explore new chunks it will be different. So how to pregenerate a map in .15 for a area of 2048 chunks without disabling the achivement and not revealed (fog of war)?
Btw: i don't care about memory usage or disk size since i have a lot RAM (64GB) and Disk space.
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