Factorio is not a game.

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Frightning
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Re: Factorio is not a game.

Post by Frightning »

ske wrote:What is limited in factorio?

Land? All terrain is the same. Except for water... until you fill it. All terrain is the same.

Resources? If you are on an island you have to manage your resources and there are usually two outcomes: Not enough and Plenty. There are no islands in factorio after you landfill the water. Outside there are always more resources to get. Resources are not limited. They only cost time. All of them. Ores are all the same, found in random places. Uranium needs some fluid to mine (which is nice) and oil uses pumps and pipes (which is also nice). You can use trains or just long lines of belts (which aren't really that much worse than using trains).

Map size? The map size is virtually unlimited by design.

Factory size? The factory size depends on how fast your CPU runs. It is kind of a limit. Not by design though and not a hard one as you can still run a factory at 5 UPS or even lower.

Power? You can always build more generators or solar panels or batteries until your CPU starts to burn. For practical purposes there is barely any difference between coal, nuclear and solar+battery. It only takes some time to setup and then you're fine with any of them.

Time? There is no timer ticking (unless you're doing speedruns). Your free time might be limited but you could always quit your day job.

Creative force and clicks? Once you have those flying construction robots you can copy&paste the rest of your factory from some strings you've found online. No need to fiddle around with ratios. Somebody did that for you. Better than you could.

Enemies? After you researched enough military and are able to kill big worms all nests are roughly the same.

What is the difference between an efficient setup and an inefficient setup? None, I would say. It doesn't really matter. You'll get there anyways.

Is factorio really a game then?

Depending on the definition of games you might argue that yes, it is a game. It is advertised as game. It looks like a game in the beginning. But contrary to other games it lacks the limitations and goals such as managing resources in a scenario or managing time and efficiency when playing vs. opponents. (The so-called "goal" is to launch the rocket. Yea, right.) I would argue that factorio in its current state is a teaching software (how to program and automate) but not a game. It is also a game engine with which somebody could use to make games. You can also use it to make art in the form of a beautiful factory. People get confused thinking that factorio is a game until they played it through a few times to realize that something is not quite right. The way they use it, it is not a game.
The formal mathematical definition of a game (from the mathematical theory of games) is: A game is a function between a strategy set and an outcome set. A strategy set is a set of tuples which assign to each player of the game, a strategy for that game. A strategy defines their choice at every possible point where they could make a decision in the game (even if playing that strategy from the start of the game never results in reaching particular game state). An outcome set describes the results of each possible play of the game. A play of a game is the resulting choices and their consequences (which can include which choices a player gets to make).

This definition is extremely general, essentially any function can be construed as a game, subject to an interpretation of the domain and codomain of said function that fits the above ideas. As a result things that most people wouldn't call games actually fit the mathematical definition of a game. Things such as participating in economic activity and even life itself are games by the mathematical definition of a game. Factorio certain fits the mathematical definition of a game, even if launching the rocket didn't 'win' the game.

Koub
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Re: Factorio is not a game.

Post by Koub »

I've been wondering the added value of such a trollesque topic from start. I've left it open for the sake of letting people express themselves, but honestly, I see it going nowhere.
It's as much as posting a "Windows is not an operating system on a microsoft forum, or Apple invented nothing on an Apple forum, or Teslas are not cars on a Tesla forum. Just troll material waiting for two camps (pro/con) to fight to death.

If you have something productive to tell, create a topic of your own in the right subforum (Ideas/balancing), express the points you want to see made better, the way you think they should be better, and why you think they would make the game better for itself (not for your own niche need shared by only 2 people).

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loup-vaillant
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Factorio is not a game. It's a toy

Post by loup-vaillant »

Factorio is awesome.

But it's not an awesome game. It's an awesome toy (or sandbox). I mean that in a technical way, described in this video. It divides interactive systems in 4 categories: toys, puzzles, contests, and games. Toys are interactive systems whose primary value is to try stuff and see what happens. Minecraft & Dwarf Fortress are such toys. Puzzles are toys with a goal: you must reach some end state to "solve" the puzzle. Contests are a way to measure how good you are: how fast you can run, how much stuff you can memorise, how quickly you can complete that speedrun… or whether you're better than someone (arms wrestling). Finally, games are an obfuscated form of contest, which requires decision making and understanding. Chess, Go, & Sarcraft are games.

Factorio is primarily a toy, with substantial puzzle elements. The contest and game aspects are a tiny part of it.
  • Without biters (or in peaceful mode), Factorio is a pure Toy. You just build your factory, make something pretty, messy, small, huge, however you like. No pressure, no goal, just toying with your factory.
  • Biters add a bit of a game element: you need to do things fast enough, and in the right order, to avoid being overrun. Still, biters aren't that much of a challenge in many settings. They mostly keep you on your toes, and are a lot of fun to kill. The recent addition in weaponry are mostly about providing new fun ways to kill, thus emphasising the toy aspect of even biters.
  • Goals such as achievements or launching rockets tend to turn Factorio into a puzzle. Yet many players don't want to abandon their factory once they have achieved some stated goal. At this point, we're back to the toy, and the player ends up findings new self-directed goals for their factory.
  • Speedruns (with or without a set of achievement) are clearly a contest.
  • PvP mode is a game, like Starcraft. But it's definitely not Factorio's focus, we can almost pretend it doesn't exist.
The nature of an interactive system affects "game balance" big time. With games, players will beat adversity by whatever means necessary. If some item or strategy is overpowered, it will squash any alternative. A particularly egregious example is Galatrix: in this game, there's a strategy that ensures victories on the first turn. Players quickly learned to use it online all the time, and took the fastest ship to make sure they would play first. This degenerated into a dice roll to determine who would play first (and therefore win).

Factorio is not a game, though. If some strategy is overpowered, it will not overshadow everything else. Case in point: logistics bots didn't stop users from using belts. Whoever didn't like bots simply didn't use them. Their bases are less efficient as a result, but it doesn't matter, because no one will "beat" them with a bot base.

I believe Factorio is a toy with puzzle elements. It means to let users explore the possibilities offered by the toy first, and offer them challenging and interesting puzzles second. Thus we see a tension with bots: on the toy end, they let players explore stuff that wouldn't be possible with belts, such as huge mega bases. On the puzzle end, they tend to trivialise local constructs (every part of the factory tend to look the same with bots). (I do think logistics bots provide puzzle elements of their own, but I don't know them well enough to comment on those.)

I think the primary fuel of the logistics bots vs belts ongoing flame fest comes from a misunderstanding, or disagreement, about what Factorio is, or should be. If you think Factorio is primarily a puzzle game, you have to admit logistics bots tend to remove some of the challenge. But if you think Factorio is primarily a toy (as I do), then bots open up many interesting possibilities and fun ways to do stuff, such as stupidly big mega bases. Likewise, the arguments buffing something instead of nerfing something else often come from a toy perspective: how about making belts so good they can scale to megabases? Now we have even more possibilities.

Similar reflection apply to the capacity of barrels, fluid wagon, belt compression… To get a good puzzle game, those need to be balanced to make sure players have an interesting challenge. To get a good toy however, they need to maximise possibilities. We cannot do both. Something has to give, if only a little. Besides, there are other, non-intrusive ways to introduce puzzle elements in Factorio. Achievements are a very good one. Launching your first rocket, obviously. But also settings. We have the marathon mode, but we could also flat out forbid some items or technologies. Nuclear, solar, laser turrets, logistics bots, and more could be optionally disabled for extra challenge.

But first, we must agree on what Factorio is, or should be: a toy, a puzzle, or a game?

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Re: Factorio is not a game. It's a toy

Post by 5thHorseman »

I agree 100% and have no problem with the definition. To me it's like saying Factorio isn't technically an airplane.

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Re: Factorio is not a game. It's a toy

Post by Jap2.0 »

I think you'll find some interesting stuff from a similar topic - that one doen't have anything about game vs. toy, though, it was more of just an argument about wheather Factorio is a game or not.
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Re: Factorio is not a game. It's a toy

Post by loup-vaillant »

5thHorseman wrote:To me it's like saying Factorio isn't technically an airplane.
To many other people too, I guess. Nevertheless, the last FFF showed quite clearly that not all, possibly including parts of the dev team, see Factorio as a toy. The whole Bot/Belt debate would hardly happen if everyone agreed on that point.

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Re: Factorio is not a game.

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged into older very similar topic (as Jap pointed out). I don't see why I should reopen it, but can be convinced otherwise if given serious arguments.
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