The purpose of automation.

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Alien_Squasher
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The purpose of automation.

Post by Alien_Squasher »

One thing that gets me over and over again, and prevents me from playing this game so much, is that you are literally automating and building giant factories for no purpose, what does it achieve in the end? There's no maniacal machine from mad science you can build nor is there a way to truly aid the Aliens, you have no choice as to which side to choose other than to play, and by playing you kill Aliens. While I love Factorio to death, the thing that gets me is that the only reason you have to build, is simply for the sake of building, there is no real thing other automation and logistics to Factorio at present, you have no real optional goal, because the rocket is easy to launch and frankly that is the only optional goal. It has a similar issue almost to KSP, where you need a spreadsheet to plan a successful space program. The thing that I'm saying is that this game needs more of a feel of true mad science and a choice of good or evil, by either making the biters go extinct, or preserving them while still polluting a little, or by playing it through careful pollution control and "Alliance" with the biters. The thing that would truly make this game a smash hit instant classic, is a taking of the Minecraft Technic formula (The literal basis for factorio) and adding a twist, a little bit of good and evil, Like Amnesia A machine for Pigs met Factorio. Add in crazy, completely mad science that will destroy the aliens, and add in eco friendly technologies as well, and add in a choice to become allies with the biters (A biter queen?) or a choice to kill them and ravage the planet for profit. The thing is Factorio is a brilliant game, but in reality it is logistics and automation, there is no deviation from the formula of Technic, and besides automation and mathematical calculation of ratios and general complexity, there is no real true depth to the game. If you add in a choice to pollute and ravage and destroy and consume, or a choice to moderate, then you have a brilliant game, Because then the player has to choose, Do I kill the alien queen and prevent biters from spreading and exterminate them, or do I become allies with them and avoid the madness of war and conquest that has so ravaged my home world? This allows for many different styles of play as well, and would make the game far deeper if you do it correctly, because then instead of simply polluting the hell out of the planet and rolling over biters, you have a choice, and this makes it more fun, because then you can be the maniacal mad scientist you want to be, or you can be the ecologist and protector of this world, who protects aliens. It also adds in a reason to expand the combat system if you have to locate the biter queen, and adds in a plethora of options for what the purpose of your factory is. The thing is, Factorio has a brilliant formula, but you still deal with the same problem of you have little choice in what to do other than play the game and roll over biters, and this adds in a deep antagonist-protagonist mad scientist Wump World (Look at the FF for it) the Lorax Dystopian fiction kind of depth to Factorio that would compliment the game's existing formula and truly make it the game that makes Minecraft look like a pushover. This would give it the thing that makes all of the great older movies like star wars great, and what makes all well thought out plots in videogames great, a true battle and choice between good and evil (Not saying the game has a plot or needs a plot, that's campaigns). I love factorio and I want to see it given some more depth, and if you say you don't have the manpower or time, there are a lot of people willing to help out, including myself.
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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by greep »

Kinda hard to read this without paragraphs. Your eye just get lost trying to refind its position in the mess.

As for a point to the game, well if you want to help, just make a mod that does this. If they like it, they might add it or use it as inspiration.

But I honestly don't see a reason for a "point" especially when most people don't have problems dropping dozens of hours on their factory. In a game as long and complex as factorio, the goal cannot be difficult for obvious reasons, so you'd completely lack any suspense that makes it feel worthwhile to play or implement, especially once it's "over". IIRC the original rocket defense before rocket silo had this sort of theme to it, and was scrapped maybe for that reason. There's short scenarios/campaigns, but they've already talked about expanding the campaign if they have time.

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by Alien_Squasher »

greep wrote:Kinda hard to read this without paragraphs. Your eye just get lost trying to refind its position in the mess.

As for a point to the game, well if you want to help, just make a mod that does this. If they like it, they might add it or use it as inspiration.

But I honestly don't see a reason for a "point" especially when most people don't have problems dropping dozens of hours on their factory. In a game as long and complex as factorio, the goal cannot be difficult for obvious reasons, so you'd completely lack any suspense that makes it feel worthwhile to play or implement, especially once it's "over". IIRC the original rocket defense before rocket silo had this sort of theme to it, and was scrapped maybe for that reason. There's short scenarios/campaigns, but they've already talked about expanding the campaign if they have time.
You did not get what I said about the game not needing a plot, The game shouldn't have a plot, What I was saying is you don't have a very realistic choice at the moment, to be eco friendly because machines still churn out pollution and no matter what you're going to pollute a lot and you're going to kill all the biters. There have been talks of "peace with the biters" and if you expand upon this by adding in something like a Biter queen you suddenly have a military objective if you want to kill it, or you have the option to become allies with the biters and build around them which makes for more interesting gameplay and adds in a choice instead of the option to just automate pollute and kill. Forget the mad sciency stuff then, you can make that a mod, but what I'm saying is this has a lot of potential without adding in a limiting restrictive plot, and it adds in more depth to the game and more of a RTS military strategy aspect if you play the game a certain way. "The Rocket defense is used to protect the landing of the rescue fleet. After the landing has started the Aliens will not stop attacking the player until the landing has completed. This marks the end of the game." This ends the game solidly and is a plot device, I was not suggesting a restrictive plot. I was suggesting an option for how you play the game.
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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by greep »

Yeah I just missed that point entirely. I simply can't read this -____- Please use the enter key sometimes. It's a wide forum and when I get to the end of the line, every time I lose my place and am missing whole sentences on account losing my place.

Edit: Actually re-read it and that point was never made lol. There was some ranting about a biter queen, which is a one off thing. Anyways, these sorts of "add something to work for" rants pop up a few million times, so trust me the developers have heard everything here; if you had a specific thing in mind you might want to flesh it out and make a suggestion in that sub-forum. Or, if you actually do want to help, like I said a mod would help a lot here, modding factorio is super easy relative to other games. An idea of a feature is worth pretty much nothing, an implementation is worth a lot more.

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by 5thHorseman »

I'm quoting this so I can read it.
Alien_Squasher wrote:One thing that gets me over and over again, and prevents me from playing this game so much, is that you are literally automating and building giant factories for no purpose, what does it achieve in the end? There's no maniacal machine from mad science you can build nor is there a way to truly aid the Aliens, you have no choice as to which side to choose other than to play, and by playing you kill Aliens.

While I love Factorio to death, the thing that gets me is that the only reason you have to build, is simply for the sake of building, there is no real thing other automation and logistics to Factorio at present, you have no real optional goal, because the rocket is easy to launch and frankly that is the only optional goal. It has a similar issue almost to KSP, where you need a spreadsheet to plan a successful space program. The thing that I'm saying is that this game needs more of a feel of true mad science and a choice of good or evil, by either making the biters go extinct, or preserving them while still polluting a little, or by playing it through careful pollution control and "Alliance" with the biters.

The thing that would truly make this game a smash hit instant classic, is a taking of the Minecraft Technic formula (The literal basis for factorio) and adding a twist, a little bit of good and evil, Like Amnesia A machine for Pigs met Factorio. Add in crazy, completely mad science that will destroy the aliens, and add in eco friendly technologies as well, and add in a choice to become allies with the biters (A biter queen?) or a choice to kill them and ravage the planet for profit.

The thing is Factorio is a brilliant game, but in reality it is logistics and automation, there is no deviation from the formula of Technic, and besides automation and mathematical calculation of ratios and general complexity, there is no real true depth to the game. If you add in a choice to pollute and ravage and destroy and consume, or a choice to moderate, then you have a brilliant game, Because then the player has to choose, Do I kill the alien queen and prevent biters from spreading and exterminate them, or do I become allies with them and avoid the madness of war and conquest that has so ravaged my home world? This allows for many different styles of play as well, and would make the game far deeper if you do it correctly, because then instead of simply polluting the hell out of the planet and rolling over biters, you have a choice, and this makes it more fun, because then you can be the maniacal mad scientist you want to be, or you can be the ecologist and protector of this world, who protects aliens.

It also adds in a reason to expand the combat system if you have to locate the biter queen, and adds in a plethora of options for what the purpose of your factory is. The thing is, Factorio has a brilliant formula, but you still deal with the same problem of you have little choice in what to do other than play the game and roll over biters, and this adds in a deep antagonist-protagonist mad scientist Wump World (Look at the FF for it) the Lorax Dystopian fiction kind of depth to Factorio that would compliment the game's existing formula and truly make it the game that makes Minecraft look like a pushover. This would give it the thing that makes all of the great older movies like star wars great, and what makes all well thought out plots in videogames great, a true battle and choice between good and evil (Not saying the game has a plot or needs a plot, that's campaigns).

I love factorio and I want to see it given some more depth, and if you say you don't have the manpower or time, there are a lot of people willing to help out, including myself.
You mention both KSP and Minecraft above, two games that are similar to Factorio in two very important ways:
1) They also have no real goal, other than some "complete this task" sort of thing.
2) I sank hundreds if not thousands of hours into each.

I'm not saying that adding more depth to the story of the game would DETRACT from these games, but I'm by no means convinced that it wouldn't. Part of the joy of Factorio (and KSP and MInecraft) is that there IS NO GOAL. You make your own goal and then achieve it given the tools.

In Minecraft, you could try to beat the Skyblock map, or try to survive underground without ever going to the surface once you leave it on the first day. In KSP, you can try to finish the tech tree without ever landing on Mun or Minmus, or get to Moho without Nukes, or land an asteroid on top of the VAB. In Factorio, you can crank up the biters, or try to put everything on a huge bus, or decentralize with a massive rail network.

I'd be leery to futz with that paradigm all that much, considering some of my favorite games over the past 5 years have stuck to it pretty strictly.

P.S. Thanks for mentioning Minecraft Technik. I'm going to check it out. I've not played in years (almost not at all since finding KSP) and one of the reasons I quit was the lack of automation. I'm going to check it out.

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by Alien_Squasher »

5thHorseman wrote:I'm quoting this so I can read it.
Alien_Squasher wrote:One thing that gets me over and over again, and prevents me from playing this game so much, is that you are literally automating and building giant factories for no purpose, what does it achieve in the end? There's no maniacal machine from mad science you can build nor is there a way to truly aid the Aliens, you have no choice as to which side to choose other than to play, and by playing you kill Aliens.

While I love Factorio to death, the thing that gets me is that the only reason you have to build, is simply for the sake of building, there is no real thing other automation and logistics to Factorio at present, you have no real optional goal, because the rocket is easy to launch and frankly that is the only optional goal. It has a similar issue almost to KSP, where you need a spreadsheet to plan a successful space program. The thing that I'm saying is that this game needs more of a feel of true mad science and a choice of good or evil, by either making the biters go extinct, or preserving them while still polluting a little, or by playing it through careful pollution control and "Alliance" with the biters.

The thing that would truly make this game a smash hit instant classic, is a taking of the Minecraft Technic formula (The literal basis for factorio) and adding a twist, a little bit of good and evil, Like Amnesia A machine for Pigs met Factorio. Add in crazy, completely mad science that will destroy the aliens, and add in eco friendly technologies as well, and add in a choice to become allies with the biters (A biter queen?) or a choice to kill them and ravage the planet for profit.

The thing is Factorio is a brilliant game, but in reality it is logistics and automation, there is no deviation from the formula of Technic, and besides automation and mathematical calculation of ratios and general complexity, there is no real true depth to the game. If you add in a choice to pollute and ravage and destroy and consume, or a choice to moderate, then you have a brilliant game, Because then the player has to choose, Do I kill the alien queen and prevent biters from spreading and exterminate them, or do I become allies with them and avoid the madness of war and conquest that has so ravaged my home world? This allows for many different styles of play as well, and would make the game far deeper if you do it correctly, because then instead of simply polluting the hell out of the planet and rolling over biters, you have a choice, and this makes it more fun, because then you can be the maniacal mad scientist you want to be, or you can be the ecologist and protector of this world, who protects aliens.

It also adds in a reason to expand the combat system if you have to locate the biter queen, and adds in a plethora of options for what the purpose of your factory is. The thing is, Factorio has a brilliant formula, but you still deal with the same problem of you have little choice in what to do other than play the game and roll over biters, and this adds in a deep antagonist-protagonist mad scientist Wump World (Look at the FF for it) the Lorax Dystopian fiction kind of depth to Factorio that would compliment the game's existing formula and truly make it the game that makes Minecraft look like a pushover. This would give it the thing that makes all of the great older movies like star wars great, and what makes all well thought out plots in videogames great, a true battle and choice between good and evil (Not saying the game has a plot or needs a plot, that's campaigns).

I love factorio and I want to see it given some more depth, and if you say you don't have the manpower or time, there are a lot of people willing to help out, including myself.
You mention both KSP and Minecraft above, two games that are similar to Factorio in two very important ways:
1) They also have no real goal, other than some "complete this task" sort of thing.
2) I sank hundreds if not thousands of hours into each.

I'm not saying that adding more depth to the story of the game would DETRACT from these games, but I'm by no means convinced that it wouldn't. Part of the joy of Factorio (and KSP and MInecraft) is that there IS NO GOAL. You make your own goal and then achieve it given the tools.

In Minecraft, you could try to beat the Skyblock map, or try to survive underground without ever going to the surface once you leave it on the first day. In KSP, you can try to finish the tech tree without ever landing on Mun or Minmus, or get to Moho without Nukes, or land an asteroid on top of the VAB. In Factorio, you can crank up the biters, or try to put everything on a huge bus, or decentralize with a massive rail network.

I'd be leery to futz with that paradigm all that much, considering some of my favorite games over the past 5 years have stuck to it pretty strictly.

P.S. Thanks for mentioning Minecraft Technik. I'm going to check it out. I've not played in years (almost not at all since finding KSP) and one of the reasons I quit was the lack of automation. I'm going to check it out.
Exactly why I am making these mods. Decided however, to sprite and balance it to the point it might as well be a Factorio Spinoff game, so it will take a while. I want to impress Kovarex and the community.
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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by Selvek »

Alien_Squasher wrote:
What I was saying is you don't have a very realistic choice at the moment, to be eco friendly because machines still churn out pollution and no matter what you're going to pollute a lot and you're going to kill all the biters.
There is always a choice. You can live a subsistence lifestyle, fishing in the ponds, and the biters will never bother you if you don't disturb their nests.

The reality is, industry is harmful to native flora and fauna. It just is. No matter which way you take it (whether in real life or factorio), a larger industry will have a greater impact. And you can't expect ANY kind of development to avoid harming the natives, as history shows.

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by 5thHorseman »

Selvek wrote:There is always a choice. You can live a subsistence lifestyle, fishing in the ponds, and the biters will never bother you if you don't disturb their nests.
Not if you have expansion on. Even with evolution off you'll eventually get encroached upon. Good luck with your pistol and 10 rounds of ammo.

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by Alien_Squasher »

The thing is, Factorio and real life are alike, why? Expand and survive and pollute, or be a hippie have no money, live in a van by the river and starve because you can't kill that smelly pig that sleeps outside your van every night for food. Oh and that and factorio and real life begin to become one.... "I'll just optimize my oil processing before breakfast.... Aaaaand it's dinner time....."
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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by Jap2.0 »

You crash landed on an alien planet. To survive, you need to build, to expand. If you do not, the biters will surely kill you, and you will have no chance of building a rocket ship to leave this planet...

Basically, that's the story :).
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Re: The purpose of automation.

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Alien_Squasher wrote:While I love Factorio to death, the thing that gets me is that the only reason you have to build, is simply for the sake of building
There's more to life than building xit? I just don't get it ...guys, is he going crazy? Yeah, I think he's just going crazy. /s
It has a similar issue almost to KSP, where you need a spreadsheet to plan a successful space program.
If you're still using spreadsheets, Yer not doin' it right, see?

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by Alien_Squasher »

featherwinglove wrote:
Alien_Squasher wrote:While I love Factorio to death, the thing that gets me is that the only reason you have to build, is simply for the sake of building
There's more to life than building xit? I just don't get it ...guys, is he going crazy? Yeah, I think he's just going crazy. /s
It has a similar issue almost to KSP, where you need a spreadsheet to plan a successful space program.
If you're still using spreadsheets, Yer not doin' it right, see?
Lol. I am still quite sane. I have just decided that I need to mod Factorio myself, that is make mods. I wanna make a mod for more interesting biter AI and possibly a Final Fantasy 7 mod with Mako reactors.
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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by Alien_Squasher »

I need you all to look up Mako Reactors and Mako Energy for me, If I were to mod this it'd be so friggin cool. And it'd be even cooler if you could create monsters with Mako and command them to wipe out some pesky biters.
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Re: The purpose of automation.

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Alien_Squasher wrote:One thing that gets me over and over again, and prevents me from playing this game so much, is that you are literally automating and building giant factories for no purpose, what does it achieve in the end?
French sociologist Roger Caillois, in his book Les jeux et les hommes (Games and Men),[7] defined a game as an activity that must have the following characteristics:

fun: the activity is chosen for its light-hearted character
separate: it is circumscribed in time and place
uncertain: the outcome of the activity is unforeseeable
non-productive: participation does not accomplish anything useful
governed by rules: the activity has rules that are different from everyday life
fictitious: it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by mrvn »

Selvek wrote:
Alien_Squasher wrote:
What I was saying is you don't have a very realistic choice at the moment, to be eco friendly because machines still churn out pollution and no matter what you're going to pollute a lot and you're going to kill all the biters.
There is always a choice. You can live a subsistence lifestyle, fishing in the ponds, and the biters will never bother you if you don't disturb their nests.

The reality is, industry is harmful to native flora and fauna. It just is. No matter which way you take it (whether in real life or factorio), a larger industry will have a greater impact. And you can't expect ANY kind of development to avoid harming the natives, as history shows.
But what if we could domesticate aliens? Instead of killing them capture them. Put them to work in factories or power generation. Wouldn't it be just cool to have a big hamster wheel with a biter running in it to make it spin? :)

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by Hellatze »

i am too lazy to read.

you simply said, what the purpose automaton in end game right ?

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by pieppiep »

aober93 wrote:French sociologist Roger Caillois, in his book Les jeux et les hommes (Games and Men),[7] defined a game as an activity that must have the following characteristics:

fun: the activity is chosen for its light-hearted character
separate: it is circumscribed in time and place
uncertain: the outcome of the activity is unforeseeable
non-productive: participation does not accomplish anything useful
governed by rules: the activity has rules that are different from everyday life
fictitious: it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality
He probably doesn't have kids. When cleaning up toys, my kids listen much better when I turn it into a game.

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by featherwinglove »

aober93 wrote: French sociologist Roger Caillois, in his book Les jeux et les hommes (Games and Men),[7] defined a game as an activity that Politics must have the following characteristics:

fun: the activity is chosen for its light-hearted character
separate: it is circumscribed in time and place
uncertain: the outcome of the activity is unforeseeable
non-productive: participation does not accomplish anything useful
governed by rules: the activity has rules that are different from everyday life
fictitious: it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality
Saw this automatically and had to blink several times to get the original version. I've been watching too much news and haven't been playing Factorio enough.

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by Selvek »

mrvn wrote:
But what if we could domesticate aliens? Instead of killing them capture them. Put them to work in factories or power generation. Wouldn't it be just cool to have a big hamster wheel with a biter running in it to make it spin? :)
Interesting thought, but I worry about the biter's health. Guinea pigs can't use hamster wheels because, unlike hamsters, their backs don't bend backwards. Given the biters apparent exoskeletons, I suspect they can curl their bodies inward but not outward, so they may have the same problem. So long term hamster wheel use may put them at risk of developing bad backs, which would be a terrible thing to do to them!

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Re: The purpose of automation.

Post by HurkWurk »

welcome to finally understanding the true nature of the term "sandbox game".

just like a giant sandbox. its there for you to create, there is no point except the creation itself.

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