0.15 Reactor Ratio

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Aru
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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Aru »

factoriouzr wrote:...
Can someone please explain the fluid physics in this game and how to overcome this limitation. Is there some magic ratio of one row of pipes for x heat exchangers or something? ...
"please explain the fluid physics in this game" is a loaded question, you have no idea. Suffice to say that the way it works creates oddities, artifacts, if you run into them don't tear your hair out. If you want to know about pipes to exchangers, look at my post right above yours, it says how many segments you're allowed to have with runs of 8, 10 and 12 exchangers (spoiler, 12 doesn't work), and kind of explains how to see for yourself.

I'm going to address a bunch of your other posts, I don't feel like going back and quoting them individually, you'll know what I'm responding to.

Placement order of everything in the game which involves fluids, influences how the fluid flows. The most you can do to guarantee artifacts aren't getting in the way (such as an intersection starving a row of fluids when it really makes no sense), is place everything in the same order that you expect fluids to flow. Reactors and heat pipes also qualify, though the "fluid" in the heat pipes seems to be heat itself. If that doesn't do the trick, and you're sure that you're not expecting too much throughput from a single pipeline, just avoid intersections and stick to serial pipelines.

As for the question of pumps seemingly dropping throughput instead of increasing it. Yes, they will do that if you don't know the um, trick of how to use them for maintaining throughput in a long pipeline. The reason for this is not due to artifacts of physics implementation, however if it were implemented better at least you'd be less inclined to suspect that it's an artifact, more likely to assume that it can be fixed through design, which it can be. The way to do this is not by having more frequent pumps in the line, rather you have to have multiple pumps in parallel, a series of "pump stations" if you will. They can be spaced out pretty far. There's a thread somewhere that shows exactly how many pumps you need per station, how far apart, to retain whatever throughput you want. The best way to think of fluid physics in this game is not as pressure, but as volumes of incompressible fluid (even if it's a gas, pretend it's a liquid) in a series of boxes, a long trough, like a Roman aqueduct except it's flat instead of angled downward, and it has a roof to limit capacity and prevent overflow, with either a A] vent in the roof for air as level rises but doesn't vent the desired fluid, or B] vacuum above the desired fluid. Then, the operation of the pumps clumped into stations makes much more intuitive sense, and you can understand why this is how it has to be done. Fluid flows naturally toward the pumps, they can only pump as much fluid as they receive, and the flow rate on the output side depends on how high they can get the height of the fluid. Also, think of the pumps as compressors, such as one might use with incompressible fluids, whose flow rate does not depend much on pressure, thus is only limited by fluid availability. The pumps only scoop up fluid from one place with buckets, deposit it on the other side, and then gravity causes the flow. There's other ways of interpreting the game's mechanics, but this one makes the most sense. Note that the game files use the term "pressure" here.

As for your question about good designs for only using reactors when needed..... ahem (check my signature). I haven't seen any other designs that automate as well as mine, not to brag, though I haven't done much looking. You can recycle pieces of the design, or just take inspiration. Note the bit about feeding turbines with tanks, and how you need either A] excessive tanks which never empty, only permanently hold steam in order to maintain pressure as with a water tower, or B] pumps, if you want to keep those turbines fed even as you approach the next reactor cycle, thus when steam reserves are at their lowest. I suspect to really get it working smoothly, a mix of those two things (pumps right at the tank outlets and a few permanently-full tanks, maybe even pumps halfway through the tank line too) will get the best results.

Hmmm, it would be nice if the game had small water towers as an alternative to ground-level tanks, essentially just raised tanks. Good idea for a mod, but I've never done any modding. Using them would be a perfect, easy fix for the steam buffer problem. Or well, it would be if it made sense that steam flows like a heavier-than-air liquid.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Dimanper »

Updated my spreadsheet from second page of this topic. Exact values without any assumptions this time. Hope it will help someone in their design decisions.
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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by factoriouzr »

Aru wrote:
factoriouzr wrote:...
Can someone please explain the fluid physics in this game and how to overcome this limitation. Is there some magic ratio of one row of pipes for x heat exchangers or something? ...
"please explain the fluid physics in this game" is a loaded question, you have no idea. Suffice to say that the way it works creates oddities, artifacts, if you run into them don't tear your hair out. If you want to know about pipes to exchangers, look at my post right above yours, it says how many segments you're allowed to have with runs of 8, 10 and 12 exchangers (spoiler, 12 doesn't work), and kind of explains how to see for yourself.

I'm going to address a bunch of your other posts, I don't feel like going back and quoting them individually, you'll know what I'm responding to.

Placement order of everything in the game which involves fluids, influences how the fluid flows. The most you can do to guarantee artifacts aren't getting in the way (such as an intersection starving a row of fluids when it really makes no sense), is place everything in the same order that you expect fluids to flow. Reactors and heat pipes also qualify, though the "fluid" in the heat pipes seems to be heat itself. If that doesn't do the trick, and you're sure that you're not expecting too much throughput from a single pipeline, just avoid intersections and stick to serial pipelines.

As for the question of pumps seemingly dropping throughput instead of increasing it. Yes, they will do that if you don't know the um, trick of how to use them for maintaining throughput in a long pipeline. The reason for this is not due to artifacts of physics implementation, however if it were implemented better at least you'd be less inclined to suspect that it's an artifact, more likely to assume that it can be fixed through design, which it can be. The way to do this is not by having more frequent pumps in the line, rather you have to have multiple pumps in parallel, a series of "pump stations" if you will. They can be spaced out pretty far. There's a thread somewhere that shows exactly how many pumps you need per station, how far apart, to retain whatever throughput you want. The best way to think of fluid physics in this game is not as pressure, but as volumes of incompressible fluid (even if it's a gas, pretend it's a liquid) in a series of boxes, a long trough, like a Roman aqueduct except it's flat instead of angled downward, and it has a roof to limit capacity and prevent overflow, with either a A] vent in the roof for air as level rises but doesn't vent the desired fluid, or B] vacuum above the desired fluid. Then, the operation of the pumps clumped into stations makes much more intuitive sense, and you can understand why this is how it has to be done. Fluid flows naturally toward the pumps, they can only pump as much fluid as they receive, and the flow rate on the output side depends on how high they can get the height of the fluid. Also, think of the pumps as compressors, such as one might use with incompressible fluids, whose flow rate does not depend much on pressure, thus is only limited by fluid availability. The pumps only scoop up fluid from one place with buckets, deposit it on the other side, and then gravity causes the flow. There's other ways of interpreting the game's mechanics, but this one makes the most sense. Note that the game files use the term "pressure" here.

As for your question about good designs for only using reactors when needed..... ahem (check my signature). I haven't seen any other designs that automate as well as mine, not to brag, though I haven't done much looking. You can recycle pieces of the design, or just take inspiration. Note the bit about feeding turbines with tanks, and how you need either A] excessive tanks which never empty, only permanently hold steam in order to maintain pressure as with a water tower, or B] pumps, if you want to keep those turbines fed even as you approach the next reactor cycle, thus when steam reserves are at their lowest. I suspect to really get it working smoothly, a mix of those two things (pumps right at the tank outlets and a few permanently-full tanks, maybe even pumps halfway through the tank line too) will get the best results.

Hmmm, it would be nice if the game had small water towers as an alternative to ground-level tanks, essentially just raised tanks. Good idea for a mod, but I've never done any modding. Using them would be a perfect, easy fix for the steam buffer problem. Or well, it would be if it made sense that steam flows like a heavier-than-air liquid.
Thanks for the explanation.

How would you buffer steam then if you use pumps as you have to let the steam in somewhere. Do you just connect the tanks to your turbines and let them fill naturally and have a pump on one side and feed it back to the turbines?

So I think I get the physics of the water, but if I have say 90 flow on one side of a pump, why does it go down to 80? Is it that the pump doesn't suck from the adjacent pipe, but only pumps out what gravity puts into it?

Which blueprint are you referring to? I don't see anything in your signature. I do see you active forums though.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by factoriouzr »

Dimanper wrote:Updated my spreadsheet from second page of this topic. Exact values without any assumptions this time. Hope it will help someone in their design decisions.
f3a.PNG
Link to spreadsheet?

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Dimanper »

factoriouzr wrote:
Dimanper wrote:Updated my spreadsheet from second page of this topic. Exact values without any assumptions this time. Hope it will help someone in their design decisions.
f3a.PNG
Link to spreadsheet?
Added to my previous post.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Distelzombie »

Dimanper wrote: Added to my previous post.
Super awesome! Thank you!
Is there a similiar spreadsheet for oil setups?
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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Aru »

factoriouzr wrote:... How would you buffer steam then if you use pumps as you have to let the steam in somewhere. Do you just connect the tanks to your turbines and let them fill naturally and have a pump on one side and feed it back to the turbines?

So I think I get the physics of the water, but if I have say 90 flow on one side of a pump, why does it go down to 80? Is it that the pump doesn't suck from the adjacent pipe, but only pumps out what gravity puts into it?

Which blueprint are you referring to? I don't see anything in your signature. I do see you active forums though.
Yes that was the idea, you would have to let steam flow from the exchangers into the tanks, then put outgoing pumps as close to the tanks as possible, perhaps even some in-line with the tanks, to pump into turbines as tank levels get low.

The pumps have to be in parallel, because each one can only pump a certain amount of fluid per second. Only so many buckets per second, and this is why they have to be in parallel instead of only one at a time. The pipeline splits out to go into several pumps, then their outputs combine and resume the line.

Is the signature not working? It's the first blue link "Automated nuclear", or just go back in this thread.
Distelzombie wrote:
Dimanper wrote: Added to my previous post.
Super awesome! Thank you!
Is there a similiar spreadsheet for oil setups?
I will just copy+paste my notes file for the new 0.15 cracking ratios and you can decipher it. Basically, 7 refineries + 1 cracking heavy + 1 cracking light should be sufficient for much of the game. EDIT: This is how many chemical plants you need to be capable of cracking all of your refinery output. You're not supposed to just let them run all of the time, you need circuits to control them.
Cracking ratios in 0.15
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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by factoriouzr »

The water/steam physics are strange in this game.

I have 9 heat exchangers in a line, they each have over 100 water all the time.
I then joined all the exchanger's steam output with each other with straight pipe.
I then joined one end of the steam pipe to 9 steam turbines using straight pipe. Each turbine, is attached to one more turbine directly. So it's a 9x2 configuration.
Everything in this setup is really close together

What I find is that there is not enough steam flow to keep all turbines running at full capacity a few barely run or don't run at all.

I tried changing the pipes to underground pipes instead of straight, I tried re-laying the straight pipes in the direction of flow. I tried adding pumps at many places. I tried single pumps, multiple pumps. I tried adding storage tanks.

The only thing that works is my original design of 1 heat exchanger piped directly into 2 turbines (ie no gap in the picture below between the heat exchanger and turbines and even then I am 2 MW short of the 480 expected output.

This is really frustrating. This game doesn't make much sense with water physics. My end goal is to add 40 storage tanks (10 per 1/4 of the reactor) so I can shut off the reactor sometimes with circuit logic, but the thing doesn't even work when I add some piping between the exchangers and the turbines without storage tanks.
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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Aeternus »

Rule of thumb I've found to be good: 1 pipe for every 2 heat exchangers. Less then that and you run into flow capacity issues. You appear to have 3 pipes for 9 exchangers, so yea, you're short and the turbines at the end of this setup will be starved of steam eventually. Add 2 more straight underground pipes from the exchangers to the steam engines.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Optera »

I run 1 offshore pump into 10 heat exchangers in 2 bypassed storage tanks and finally 17 turbines.
Never noticed any throughput issues. Since 17 is rounded down the tanks gradually fill up even under 100% load so a 18+ turbine setup should be better to handle peak loads.

What your setup might be suffering from is Factorios terrible fluid mechanics.
Rule of thumb: Don't give fluids more than 1 way to go.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by MeduSalem »

Yeah, in above setup it's definitely the circular setup... if the fluid splits and merges weird stuff is happening... black magic and all sorts of satanic misbehaviour.


That said I'm running 1 Offshore Pump with 20 Boilers, hooked up to 8 Heat Exchangers and finally 20 Steam Turbines... no throughput issues (or if there are they are pretty much unnoticable).

But more than that will probably start to suffer to a certain measurable degree, but I didn't test it out yet.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by factoriouzr »

Thanks for the tips everyone. I will give those a try.

Are you guys saying that I should pipe the steam in a circular direction without the two ends connecting and instead just ending after making almost a complete circle (my design is mirrored on all sides, so the 1/4 you are seeing is mirrored 3 more times and flipped as needed)?

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

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factoriouzr wrote:Thanks for the tips everyone. I will give those a try.

Are you guys saying that I should pipe the steam in a circular direction without the two ends connecting and instead just ending after making almost a complete circle (my design is mirrored on all sides, so the 1/4 you are seeing is mirrored 3 more times and flipped as needed)?
Just keep no more than 900 fluid/sec (<=224 pipes) or 1200 fluid/sec (<=14 pipes) per one pipe (source, phisics are still the same, just multiply fluid by 10) and try to keep them seperate, without any contacts (so no more than 900/1200/etc fluid per pipe system). This means 8(11) heat exchangers, 15(20) steam turbines, 1 water pump per pipe.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by factoriouzr »

Dimanper wrote:
factoriouzr wrote:Thanks for the tips everyone. I will give those a try.

Are you guys saying that I should pipe the steam in a circular direction without the two ends connecting and instead just ending after making almost a complete circle (my design is mirrored on all sides, so the 1/4 you are seeing is mirrored 3 more times and flipped as needed)?
Just keep no more than 900 fluid/sec (<=224 pipes) or 1200 fluid/sec (<=14 pipes) per one pipe (source, phisics are still the same, just multiply fluid by 10) and try to keep them seperate, without any contacts (so no more than 900/1200/etc fluid per pipe system). This means 8(11) heat exchangers, 15(20) steam turbines, 1 water pump per pipe.
Wow 14 pipes. That's quite limiting especially when reactors encourage building big for the adjacency bonuses. Man I really like the fluid physics in Factorio less and less.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Dimanper »

factoriouzr wrote:Wow 14 pipes. That's quite limiting especially when reactors encourage building big for the adjacency bonuses. Man I really like the fluid physics in Factorio less and less.
Yeah, fluid phisics right now (as well as heat phisics, which is even worse actually), i think, is the worst mechanic in the game, especially for new players, who need to somehow figure them all by their own, which is really counterintuitive thing to do in this game. But i actually like the fact that you need to lay a lot of seperate pipes to and from heat exchangers to make big reactor system work properly, since it really gives you the sense of all this massive nuclear infrastructure. I mean, those 14 pipes replace 11428 solar panels and 9600 accumulators, which is a lot bigger and harder to build.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Aeternus »

Dimanper wrote:
factoriouzr wrote:Thanks for the tips everyone. I will give those a try.

Are you guys saying that I should pipe the steam in a circular direction without the two ends connecting and instead just ending after making almost a complete circle (my design is mirrored on all sides, so the 1/4 you are seeing is mirrored 3 more times and flipped as needed)?
Just keep no more than 900 fluid/sec (<=224 pipes) or 1200 fluid/sec (<=14 pipes) per one pipe (source, phisics are still the same, just multiply fluid by 10) and try to keep them seperate, without any contacts (so no more than 900/1200/etc fluid per pipe system). This means 8(11) heat exchangers, 15(20) steam turbines, 1 water pump per pipe.
What I do not see listed is if the heat exchangers/boilers, being 3 wide, count as a pipe of 3 length, 1 length or doesn't count at all for piping purposes. Should test that probably... it could be a bit of an exploit if boilers are transparant. They're cheap... you could just build rows and rows of them, unpowered, if you need a long high-pressure pipe to somewhere.
As for building wide with reactors - given that heat pipes, if laid out in a pattern that moves outward from the reactors, seem to carry an insane amount of heat per branch - 1GW I'm told, enough to power 100 heat exchangers at full burn. So while it's more expensive due to the heatpipe cost, it makes more sense to put the heat exchangers close to the pumps/shore (~8 heat exchangers per pump and put the turbines a little behind the heat exchangers. You get the added advantage that the heatpipes themselves store gobs of energy, so if you're doing a throttled reactor design, you need tiny steam buffers, all that reactor heat will just be stored in the reactors and heatpipes until the exchangers can use it.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by factoriouzr »

Dimanper wrote:
factoriouzr wrote:Wow 14 pipes. That's quite limiting especially when reactors encourage building big for the adjacency bonuses. Man I really like the fluid physics in Factorio less and less.
Yeah, fluid phisics right now (as well as heat phisics, which is even worse actually), i think, is the worst mechanic in the game, especially for new players, who need to somehow figure them all by their own, which is really counterintuitive thing to do in this game. But i actually like the fact that you need to lay a lot of seperate pipes to and from heat exchangers to make big reactor system work properly, since it really gives you the sense of all this massive nuclear infrastructure. I mean, those 14 pipes replace 11428 solar panels and 9600 accumulators, which is a lot bigger and harder to build.
So do I need to double my pipes (so 2 adjacent rows of pipes) all around my turbines for steam transport, or just make more connections from one long straight pipe at the exchangers to one long straight pipe at the turbines?

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Dimanper »

factoriouzr wrote:So do I need to double my pipes (so 2 adjacent rows of pipes) all around my turbines for steam transport, or just make more connections from one long straight pipe at the exchangers to one long straight pipe at the turbines?
Just keep all the earlier mentioned by me ratios per 1 pipe and please don't ever connect 2 pipe systems ever, since that's the point where game fluid mechanics do most of their mysterious weird stuff happening.
Dimanper wrote:Just keep no more than 900 fluid/sec (<=224 pipes) or 1200 fluid/sec (<=14 pipes) per one pipe (source, phisics are still the same, just multiply fluid by 10) and try to keep them seperate, without any contacts (so no more than 900/1200/etc fluid per pipe system). This means 8(11) heat exchangers, 15(20) steam turbines, 1 water pump per pipe.

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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by factoriouzr »

Dimanper wrote:
factoriouzr wrote:So do I need to double my pipes (so 2 adjacent rows of pipes) all around my turbines for steam transport, or just make more connections from one long straight pipe at the exchangers to one long straight pipe at the turbines?
Just keep all the earlier mentioned by me ratios per 1 pipe and please don't ever connect 2 pipe systems ever, since that's the point where game fluid mechanics do most of their mysterious weird stuff happening.
Dimanper wrote:Just keep no more than 900 fluid/sec (<=224 pipes) or 1200 fluid/sec (<=14 pipes) per one pipe (source, phisics are still the same, just multiply fluid by 10) and try to keep them seperate, without any contacts (so no more than 900/1200/etc fluid per pipe system). This means 8(11) heat exchangers, 15(20) steam turbines, 1 water pump per pipe.
How does this work with storage tanks?

This is my current design but I can't get the full output from it. On very similar previous iterations I had it at 478 MW. It seems like all these pipe limitations are just getting in the way of making nice designs. It doesn't help that the ratio of exchangers to turbines isn't exact, so it forces you to share steam, but sharing steam causes pipe flow issues.

Man I'm really getting tired of these wonky physics lol.
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Re: 0.15 Reactor Ratio

Post by Fatmice »

Aeternus wrote: What I do not see listed is if the heat exchangers/boilers, being 3 wide, count as a pipe of 3 length, 1 length or doesn't count at all for piping purposes. Should test that probably... it could be a bit of an exploit if boilers are transparant. They're cheap... you could just build rows and rows of them, unpowered, if you need a long high-pressure pipe to somewhere.
Boilers count as one pipe segment. This word transparent is not apt for use to describe a collection of things that act as one. There are only five instances where things act as a collection and they are the accumulators, solar panels, electrical poles/substation, rails, and section of belts without inserters. Also while they do span 3 tiles, they are more costly than 3 pipes. Performance wise, 50 pipes vs 50 boiler, the flow rate is about the same with the pipes being 10% faster. So if you're willing to pay the cost, you can get roughly 950 unit/s from traveling 150 tiles with 50 boilers.
rate
Aeternus wrote: As for building wide with reactors - given that heat pipes, if laid out in a pattern that moves outward from the reactors, seem to carry an insane amount of heat per branch - 1GW I'm told, enough to power 100 heat exchangers at full burn. So while it's more expensive due to the heatpipe cost, it makes more sense to put the heat exchangers close to the pumps/shore (~8 heat exchangers per pump and put the turbines a little behind the heat exchangers. You get the added advantage that the heatpipes themselves store gobs of energy, so if you're doing a throttled reactor design, you need tiny steam buffers, all that reactor heat will just be stored in the reactors and heatpipes until the exchangers can use it.
You don't need to build reactor near a shoreline. Just fluid wagon/barrel the water to the reactor.
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