Self sustaining Solar Plant

[Nebulorum]

I have been playing like crazy and seen a bunch of play throughs to ripe ideas off. I've seen some ideas for massive power solar plants, but I was wondering the ideal setup for self sustaining solar only plants. So I decide to run a test.

1 Electric Furnace (180kW constant)
2 Fast Inserters (both can spike up to 64kW)

Base on this I would ened at least 4 solar panels (60kW each) but would run into limits when inserter are on max consumption. No during the day that is fine, but what happens at night?

So I place a single accumulator. It charges slowly because of the tight budget, they charge slowly. First night I run out of power really fast. Next night 2 accumulator and it last almost through the night. The thing is that solar panels produce even when it's dark, but they lose output over time.

My last test was 8 panels, 3 accumulators, and that runs fine the entire night. I decided to add another accumulator just in case.

So based on my observations 8 panels and 4 accumulators should run fine for 320 kW consumption. That is half a steam power generator.

My questions is: Am I missing something? What about laser turrets?

My mathematical analysis of turrets it the following. One turret needs two accumulator to handle the power consumption (600kW per turret vs 300kW output per accu). They drain 6 kW just for being on and 600kW when shooting. Now each accumulator has 5 MJoules of power so they can be drained in 16 seconds. What is missing here is how much time do they shoot for? Also how long are the days? I assume time is scaled down.

Is there a way to test the turrets?

Edit: I added 4 laser turrets to this setup. There is a massive spike in power when you install them. WIth 2 inserts, 4 laser turret, and a eletric furnace, this setup will go through the night (2 MJ left on the 4 accumulator). And charge during the day.

Why to turret have batteries and how are they drained?

Nebulorum

[Jobeo]

I don't understand the need for the mathematical analysis. You should just work on large scales for everything. Use the construction bot blueprint planner to come up with an ideal solar panel design around a substation. Do the same for accumulators. Then put that blueprint down over and over...

When I started this base I relied on 3 "strings" of steam engines. Over time I migrated to pure solar and was able to dismantle the steam engine strings. By clicking on a power pole you can get a good idea of what's going on. During the night watch how the accumulators decline. If, in a single night, they go down below 25% it's time to add more accumulators. Get factories up and producing solar panels and accumulators.

Right now I am at 8.0 Gj stored energy and 1,500 solar panels. You can see the repeated patterns here:

[torham]

I think the turrets consume 600 kW per second while shooting. The duration depends on the duration of the biter attack. If you have constant sustained attack going on, they will keep firing all the time. On stand by they use 6 kW, IE when not firing at the enemy. There are a lot of variables when designing pure solar plants. For example Efficiency modules are MASSIVELY helpful in keeping the power consumption down. A base electric furnace uses 180 kW, but with 2 efficiency modules I it only uses 72kW. Electric drills are even better, with 3 level 1 efficiency modules you can bring the power consumption from 90 kW to 18 kW !! That's astonishing 80% reduction. If you want to go all solar, I would advise to start automated production of efficiency modules asap, and avoid spike consumers like fast inserters or laser turrets. Or maybe run the turrets on a separate power grid, so that If they eat up all your energy, your base keeps functioning. Although if your laser turrets run out of energy its bad news anyway, since you will have biters inside the perimeter shortly

[ssilk]

Laser turrets run on batteries for some time, when not powered and they store the power for one shoot ... the batteries are used to reduce power fail, when they shoot. Have alook at the configuration:

Code: Select all

   <energy_source>
        <input_flow_limit>1200kW</input_flow_limit>
        <type>electric</type>
        <usage_priority>primary-input</usage_priority>
        <drain>6kW</drain>
        <buffer_capacity>201kJ</buffer_capacity>
   </energy_source>

input-flow-limit = this is the maximum power, which can flow into the laser turret (to avoid power fails).
drain is the mentioned drain of 6 Kw.
buffer-capacity is the internal accu.

A shoot:

Code: Select all

        <energy_consumption>200kJ</energy_consumption>

So per shoot 200 kJ us used.

You see: the buffer is 201 kJ, a shoot empties the buffer to 1 kJ. Then the laser needs to reload the buffer. This drains 1200 kW from the net. A reload takes so - hmm - 1/6 second, plus the 6 kW of drain, but that is still about 0.166 seconds.

Or in other words: If you cut off the power, then the laser will have enough power for about 1/6 second before the accu goes below 200 kJ (the drain for 1 kJ vs. 6 kW). During that time the laser can fire one shoot.

[PharAway]

Jobeo thanks for the pic. I've been meaning to move to solar panels for my power and kill my dependence on coal. How did you handle things prior to constructor bots? Just manually do the build?

[GewaltSam]

I went for a clean setup with 4 tiles of space between the substation/solar blocks, so I have enough space to walk by, and to build roboports and power poles in between. I built them in the desert, so space is not a problem at all If I need more power, I just deconstruct the wall and add more rows. That setup works pretty well for me so far, and in my opinion, it looks nice

I don't go for solar before i got some construction bots, because I am simply too lazy to build that for myself Right now, I am trying to rush to bots asap before I really crank up my production in other areas. But it's possible to do it manually of course, if you want/need to get rid of steam engines fast.

My accumulator stronghold looks similar, btw.

[Jobeo]

Jobeo thanks for the pic. I've been meaning to move to solar panels for my power and kill my dependence on coal. How did you handle things prior to constructor bots? Just manually do the build?

Yes, before bots I build in long rows... Since it is easiest to run and place the items at the same time. I transition to this after I start running out of power from 3 strings of steam engines... so once you start maxing 25-30 steam engines its time to go solar. Then gradually phase out the steam engines as you can. The safest way is to just disconnect the steam engines and make sure you can get through a couple nights without them. That way if things go sideways you can just hook them back up real quick.

Here is my accumulator/solar setup pre-bots...

[Marconos]

I don't use solar panel, I don't know it feels too simple to me. You build them and then boom free power forever, not to mention you also get no pollution. So far in my worlds I go 100% coal power / oil power to run things. It generates tons of pollution but I need all resource types for the entire game (well except wood, still haven't found a real purpose for that). If you drop coal production you it eliminates having to expand the map and push your borders to find more resources. I honestly think solar costs should go way up as their benefit is insane. I personally find them game breaking .... guess I should post this in the balance thread.

[Jobeo]

If you drop coal production you it eliminates having to expand the map and push your borders to find more resources.

If only that were true.....

[DarkenDragon]

I don't use solar panel, I don't know it feels too simple to me. You build them and then boom free power forever, not to mention you also get no pollution. So far in my worlds I go 100% coal power / oil power to run things. It generates tons of pollution but I need all resource types for the entire game (well except wood, still haven't found a real purpose for that). If you drop coal production you it eliminates having to expand the map and push your borders to find more resources. I honestly think solar costs should go way up as their benefit is insane. I personally find them game breaking .... guess I should post this in the balance thread.

Well this is only true depending on what settings you have set during the creation of your world. Because if you set the coal to be normal then yea you'll have coal for days. But then when you get further into the game you'll want to stop using coal for boilers because plastics and explosives can only use coal to make them. So solid fuel becomes a better fuel source down the road.

Also it isn't easy to rely only on solar since the major cost of it is real estate. I order for you to replace a steam engine you need about 17 solar panels and im not even sure how many accumulators for the night. (Anyone know how long night last for?) And you'll need to defend it as well. Even if it doesnt cause pollution, the biters will still go after it if its close enough to your factory

[GewaltSam]

Then gradually phase out the steam engines as you can. The safest way is to just disconnect the steam engines and make sure you can get through a couple nights without them. That way if things go sideways you can just hook them back up real quick.

I keep a few steam engines and build a "solar circuit": https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... ailable.3F

That way, you got a backup for when your power usage rises.

I honestly think solar costs should go way up as their benefit is insane. I personally find them game breaking .... guess I should post this in the balance thread.

Well, maybe they are a little bit too cheap, but have you ever tried using them for a big factory? You need TONS of them, as well as shitloads of accumulators to run a big one. I got around a thousand batteries and solars for my 30-50MW factory, and I am near the limit of what i can do with that. Sure, 50MW should be enough to win the game at the moment, but that setup is crazy big and complex anyway, and it cost a LOT of resources. A solar panel costs 5 copper, 5 steel and 15 green circuits, and now multiply that with a thousand. Wouldn't say that's much too cheap if you ask me. Only thing they really should do is to extend the time you need to craft one solar panel.

[tralala]

I honestly think solar costs should go way up as their benefit is insane. I personally find them game breaking .... guess I should post this in the balance thread.

Well, maybe they are a little bit too cheap, but have you ever tried using them for a big factory? You need TONS of them, as well as shitloads of accumulators to run a big one. I got around a thousand batteries and solars for my 30-50MW factory, and I am near the limit of what i can do with that. Sure, 50MW should be enough to win the game at the moment, but that setup is crazy big and complex anyway, and it cost a LOT of resources. A solar panel costs 5 copper, 5 steel and 15 green circuits, and now multiply that with a thousand. Wouldn't say that's much too cheap if you ask me. Only thing they really should do is to extend the time you need to craft one solar panel.

1K panels and 1K accus require 32.5 K copper and 57 k iron plates as well as 15K petrol. This is definitely not cheap but whether it is adequate - I don't know. Problem is these are one-time costs only and from there on you have constant 30-40 MW energy production with no maintenance and pollution whatsoever.

Solar requires space, ressources and time to set up (even with blueprints) which balances it atm. But when you've managed to set it up the energy aspect is taken out of the game, which isn't necessarily good. I'm all for automation in the endgame but for energy it seems a bit too easy to achieve with solar/accu combo. The ressources needed are'nt so much compared to say modules and space isn't an issue in most setups later in the game.

I don't know how to improve energy management for the endgame, but two things seem rather straightforward to me:

a) Increase manufacturing time for panels and accus. Both are ridiculously low with 0.5 s compared to the input needed and the crafting time of comparable items.
b) Make accus slightly more expensive. They are able to dynamically store and release energy according to the demand/supply state of the electric network with 100% efficiency - surely an advanced circuit or two wouldn't hurt in the recipe.

[GewaltSam]

a) Increase manufacturing time for panels and accus. Both are ridiculously low with 0.5 s compared to the input needed and the crafting time of comparable items.
b) Make accus slightly more expensive. They are able to dynamically store and release energy according to the demand/supply state of the electric network with 100% efficiency - surely an advanced circuit or two wouldn't hurt in the recipe.

That seems quite reasonable and should be done.

I just like to point out that, with the disadvantage of pollution, it's possible to get self-sustaining energy from steam engines, too. Just connect enough oil pumps and go for solid fuel; I have no time right now to calculate how many liters per second you would need to extract to get 50MW of energy out of solid fuel. If someone feels the desire to do that, go ahead

[Marconos]

a) Increase manufacturing time for panels and accus. Both are ridiculously low with 0.5 s compared to the input needed and the crafting time of comparable items.
b) Make accus slightly more expensive. They are able to dynamically store and release energy according to the demand/supply state of the electric network with 100% efficiency - surely an advanced circuit or two wouldn't hurt in the recipe.

That seems quite reasonable and should be done.

I just like to point out that, with the disadvantage of pollution, it's possible to get self-sustaining energy from steam engines, too. Just connect enough oil pumps and go for solid fuel; I have no time right now to calculate how many liters per second you would need to extract to get 50MW of energy out of solid fuel. If someone feels the desire to do that, go ahead

Not the same thing. Using oil you have to spend energy to pump the oil and produce the solid fuel. Then move the fuel to the furnace and load them etc. It's an active system that have a net gain (potentially) on power produced -vs- power used to make the energy. It may actually not work as well. We would have to run the numbers to see how much energy to produce enough oil and then to process the oil into heavy / light / petrol then make that into solid fuel. it could actually be a lossy operation where it costs more energy to produce then what you gain (I don't know the numbers). In any case it's not the same in sense that it's an active system. It's balanced and if you need more energy you have to plan and design it.

Solar, plop it down. No cost, no upkeep, no consumption just free energy.

[starxplor]

The trick with solar is that it takes A LOT of space for the same output. My compact fuel based power plant is dwarfed by the space needed for solars(with or without accumulators) needed to produce the same power.

[torham]

I see the game as far from feature complete. There may be mechanics that will be implemented later that will make steam more viable than cheap solars.
For example:
earthquakes - large area damage - solar power plants with hundreds of structures will be much more vulnerable
tornadoes - same as above
flying enemies - the size of the solar farms makes it difficult to protect, if the enemies could fly above your fortification and wreak havoc inside.
variable weather patterns - the usefulness of the current setup hinges on constant and predictable power output. Every day is perfectly sunny, every night lasts the same. If we had cloudy days and long term disruption of the solar capacity, solars would be nocked back to the "extra free energy sometimes" as opposed to the main power generator they are now.

[tralala]

The trick with solar is that it takes A LOT of space for the same output. My compact fuel based power plant is dwarfed by the space needed for solars(with or without accumulators) needed to produce the same power.

The space and ressource requirement is what balances it in the early and midgame. Because of this I usually switch to solar relatively late when I am strong enough to clear out even big biter bases and have the necessary production power. I don't think solar is overpowered in the early and midgame. It's the endgame where solar becomes a no-brainer and is just a task of plopping down more panels/accus. This is not true for assemblers. You have to manage the ressource and product flow which becomes even harder in the endgame when you strive for high production.

Maybe flying enemies will do the balancing in the endgame as it requires you to set up a huge area defense for your solar/accu farms. Maybe we have to think about additional requirements for managing high energy throughput maybe a limit to the amount of energy which can pass through one cable (although this would probably just mean you build several cable lines from your solar farm to your factory). Maybe some kind of needed maintenance for solar panels / accumulators which you have to setup.

[Zourin]

Staying clean costs space, yeah. It's good to have 'green zones' that don't attract biter attention, IMO.

When dealing with laser turrets, I usually prefer to run them on their own power network (accumulator bank and steam plant). That steam plant is also coupled to the primary grid, but you can't beat a steam plant and accumulators for powering lasers.

Accumulators should be run in moderation. While you can go 'full solar', I find it useful to run a combination steam/solar solution, especially after investing in a full 18-engine power plant early on.

[Rahjital]

Both accumulators and solar panels are a bit too powerful and cheap, I think. Like tralala said, the best decision is to switch to solars once you get the necessary infrastructure. The only real disadvantage is the amount of space it takes, but that's not really an issue because they don't produce any pollution and don't get attacked by biters.

What renewable energy should be about is supplementing main power sources, not replacing them entirely (at least not without spending huge amount of resources). Maybe we'll see that once there are more power sources in the game.

Edit: Or, as was pitched in the ideas section, make accumulators lossy. That would mean that only a certain amount of energy put in the accumulator would be stored, the rest would be lost. This would turn accumulators into an emergency energy source instead of the reliable energy storage they are now.

[hoho]

Another way to balance reneweable energy sources would be to lower the charge rate of accumulators while keeping their discharge rate the same. Yes, it's still possible to go solar-only even then but you'd need more accumulators to be able to store enough energy to survive the night.


In my mind "green" energy should be there just to support the main energy production but as long as it's not (easy) to set priorities for energy production lines it's somewhat limited*. DyTech adds primary/secondary/tertiary generators/solars so that as long as higher-priority ones can supply enough power the lower priority stuff turns off completely. In similar vein I'd see greengens as higher priority than fuel-based stuff but currently in vanilla-Factorio all energy sources are at same basic "level" and all of them scale their production together.



*) Yes, I know about stuff like https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... ailable.3F but it's far from trivial to implement for a newbie.