wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

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pbhead
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wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by pbhead » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:17 am

Ouchies.


Is anyone else unhappy about the stack sizes no longer being powers of 2? Trains are now ~78% as effective as before. :(

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by JamesOFarrell » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:33 am

I think train carriages need a bit of a boost in storage size to compete with belts. I saw some numbers either here or in the subreddit saying they are just not worth it. Doubling their size would be a good quick fix.

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by OBAMA MCLAMA » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:54 am

i find it interesting about the inventory size of the car.
the car is 80 inventory slots, while the cargo wagon having 15. The cargo wagon appears to be roughly 3 times larger than the car. And is meant to transport items. While the car, imo is meant to travel.
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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by Prezombie » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:44 am

Yeah, I really dislike the new stack sizes, they're ever so less dignified. 50 ore/stack, 15 stacks per carriage, you need a disgustingly long train to make train transport dominate a stupidly long conveyer belt.

I made a nice little mod to cover both of these problems. Stack sizes back to "normal", cargo wagons have 80 spaces, and as a bonus to improve loading and unloading, Inserter stack size bonus is exponential, ISSB 2-4 each double the ISSB instead of linearly increasing it by one.

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by Rahjital » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:53 am

It's not really an issue with the new stack sizes, though, cargo wagons have always had laughably low capacity. I suppose it's the developer's attempt to make players always use multiple wagons, even if they don't want to move tons of items... which is a shame, since that's trains should be about.

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by DarkenDragon » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:17 pm

Hopefully this is just them testing the train to see how it works and maybe in the next few patches we'll be able to research bigger cargo wagons.

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by OBAMA MCLAMA » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:21 pm

i really don't see the problem with the new stack sizes, after a bit of playing with it, you wont notice.
i kind of like it more, laser turrets stack size is 50 now. lol, same with solar panels and etc
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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by Jobeo » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:28 pm

i like the new stack sizes but the train car capacity should have been modified to match the old setup

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by slpwnd » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:52 pm

This is a side effect. Not an intended nerf. We will do something about it in one of the bugfix releases for 0.10.

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by sciencemile » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:35 pm

Simple fix would probably be Round (ceiling) rather than Round (floor) when reconfiguring the stacks to ^10, but idk the values of the stacks are relative so you'd still have a problem with cargo trains no matter how much they carry, because the problem is in relation to other methods of storage I guess.

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by RMJ » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:22 pm

Can the car still hold more than the train ? i always find that really odd and hilarious :P

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by ssilk » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:50 pm

But makes sense. But with the current I would add some stacks for the wagon.
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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by kovarex » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:07 am

Hello,

I would like to make clear, that the changes are not final. We just changed the stack sizes to match the metric system and chose the closest values.
It doesn't mean we know if the stacks should be bigger or lower, we will still change the stack sizes of individual items in the future depending on what we think is good.

About the wagon, we agreed to make the wagon larger, so no worries :)

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by _aD » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:10 am

As logic bots tend to over-supply the player I have to carry a much smaller item count than I did before to prevent having one too many delivered (thus an extra slot used). I use to have roads, some boards, walls set to 60. The bots would usually supply 61-64 which was fine. Now I have to set it to 40 to avoid over-spill. For circuits and metals it was 200, as there was again a buffer of 56 before it rolled over to another slot. Not a major problem but it does significantly reduce what I can carry.
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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by ssilk » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:04 pm

Well, I see that as an side effect of the robot stack size. If the stack size is only 1 they never do that.

This is an issue that is already pointed out, and I think they will change it so, that it doesn't happen anymore, cause that odds me very much, too. But I think it may take time, cause there are some side-effects, which must be solved first.
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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by mohreb » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:28 pm

kovarex wrote:Hello,

I would like to make clear, that the changes are not final. We just changed the stack sizes to match the metric system and chose the closest values.
It doesn't mean we know if the stacks should be bigger or lower, we will still change the stack sizes of individual items in the future depending on what we think is good.

About the wagon, we agreed to make the wagon larger, so no worries :)
what is the benefit of metric system instead of a binary where stacks are doubles of each-other by definition?

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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by ssilk » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:21 pm

That has already explained in the other thread: 17 * 128 (for a wagon) is difficult to calculate, but 17 * 100 could be managed. In Factorio it is not important to split stacks like that, perhaps for the first 15 minutes of the game, it's much more important to have a knowledge how much of an item is needed.

You need to make good estimations all the time, like:
I have a chest full of copper, how long will it last?
I have 2 wagons of x, when full it is that much. And to make y I need about the same amount of z.
I've 200 iron plates, how much wheels can I make from that? And how many belts?
This is much easier with decimals.
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Re: wow that train nerf. (stack size changes)

Post by VapidLinus » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:52 pm

I think they were too small before. Even worse now. Though, I still use trains. They're fun!
But yeah, they inventory space should be doubled :l

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