Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

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Darthlawsuit
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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by Darthlawsuit »

therapist wrote:
Darthlawsuit wrote:Already a topic on this and already been answered multiple times:
Again Ill say, come off of it. VapidLinus, the OP, wanted to know the answer to his question, and at least the angry morality police were staying on the topic and answering his question. Getting upset that the question is brought up, and pointing out over and over and over the flame war occurred in another thread about this topic WILL NOT stop this discussion.

We value the input of letting others read the nasty flame war thread, but it might be nice to have an actual discussion about this topic between human beings rather than just letting trolls duke it out. Maybe you could start your own thread where you complain about how many times this topic has come up and how you wish people wouldn't discuss it because it has been answered just so so so many times (the one flamewar thread).

What if I mirrored your disapproving sentiments and said I don't really feel this is the place to voice your opinion on the validity of this thread or this discussion, the topic of this thread is trying a game by pirating it first before buying. Accept this discussion will occur (YES, AGAIN) and either contribute, or choose not to contribute. We can start a thread just for bashing the discussion or raising awareness about how this question has already been answered if you want, but maybe expressing that sentiment for the third time is unnecessary?

The discomfort from the forum users surrounding this topic is so amazingly palpable it's unreal. It's as though some of you feel dirty or start to squirm at the mere mention of "piracy" about your beloved. She (factorio) is all our beloved, and we all love her differently. One way is not better than another, all roads to sales are a success for our proud beauty queen, even those you might find unsavory.
Already posted my thoughts on the other topic, can you not be bothered to read? You want me to make a topic to complain about the 2 times this has came up? What an obvious fail troll you are.

I'd like to see you mirror my sentiments since you couldn't possibly have gained much from the little I posted, go ahead I am waiting. Well that last sentence just proved you are incapable of clicking a link and reading what I posted in that thread. You are such an obvious troll it is unreal...

Image

Since you are lazy here is a direct link: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 031#p13031
My point being, what is your opinion on this behaviour? Feel it's 'right' to pirate games, and buy them if you enjoy them? Even if there is a demo?
I bought Rome 2 at full price and I have yet to get my money's worth, it is a broken piece of shit that I wasted $60 on. Why waste $60 on a non-functional game when you can pirate it to make sure the game works and offers what was promised then buy it if the game wasn't misleading in its advertising. Half the games I have bought I pirated first, infact they are my BEST games that I play the most. I got into paradox games by pirating Europa universialis 3, then buying it and all expansions... Then I moved on to Hearts of iron 3 and own everything now. Heck I pirated Crusader Kings 2 and I now own most of the DLC released for it :P. Sunk hundreds of hours into those games and I threw my money at them, nothing for them to complain about.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by therapist »

Khyron wrote: Quite possibly. But there are a multitude of other reasons why they might have done it. It could be that all the people who pirated factorio who were using the update service were causing too much cost on their server bandwidth/quota. It could be that they were looking to build statistics to see which users update the game how often. It could be a preliminary step towards multiplayer features like a lobby. It could be for a combination of reasons.
Agreed, I listed my 3 reasons that DRM was implemented somewhere around these forums, and I think you nailed all 3 of them, an FU to the pirates, to protect bandwidth from reverse DDOS thru automated update scumming, and as a "dry run" to implemenet the same DRM to the multiplayer.
Khyron wrote:Ok, now it's starting to make sense where you are coming from. I'll say again: Just because there is a login doesn't mean it's because of or is equal to DRM. I'll point once again to the example of email (which has nothing to do with DRM) and DVD region locking (which is a very plain example of DRM). I understand you want to talk about DRM in the software scope so I'll give you some other examples of DRM in the software scope which do not involve logins: CD keys, date/time expiry for licenses, requiring an original CD in the drive, hardware dongle key, challenge/response where you had to look up a word in the manual on a certain page. The ubiquity of the internet makes username/password the prevailing method to implement software DRM these days, but having an account with a provider is often for many features other than just pure DRM.
I never meant to imply that every login everywhere is DRM, just that factorio's is likely the first step to DRM in multiplayer. Maybe I posted that in the thread in off-topic area titled meta DRM something something I dont remember the name and I'm possibly merging my arguments from the two threads. Calling email DRM was a step too far, but it is digital authentication management, and can be used by email providers who charge for email service as a sort of DRM.

Alot of the DRM options you list have nothing to do with video games (not since 1998 anyway) and I'd really rather discuss video game DRM in the modern sense, which, to me and most of the "video game media" refers to forcing a user to login to gain access to content. I think you too often assume companies are completely innocent and have no intent of implementing DRM with their actions, I am not so trusting as you are.
Khyron wrote::D Ok, we've moved forward. Initially it seemed your argument was just authenticaion = DRM, which confused me. Eventually you've revealed that you were thinking authentication = DRM = bad. Now we can see that authenticaion != DRM, but the question is: DRM = bad? So let me ask you plainly, is there such a thing as good DRM? Should software/game developers be permitted to make any efforts to prevent their game from being pirated?
I never even meant to imply that all DRM = Bad, the thing that "= Bad" is causing unnecessary problems to the people who actually payed for your game. Confounding pirates is one thing, but adding ANY level of annoyance to paying customers is a trifle severe in my book. Blizzard games on BattleNET have used a serial key and account login system to implement DRM since 1998, and I have always loved their system. The problem with some DRM schemes is how they cause users to repeatedly login, how they add security concerns by having a video game exe handling passwords rather than using a hardened tried and tested login platform, causing the user to connect to the internet just to play single player or LAN games, requiring authentication for mundane tasks like checking for updates, Using DRM in a way that degrades performance (SC2 did this originally, WOW's antihack service scanning system does this), etc. I could keep this list going but I'd rather not write a paper on the problems of DRM, the fact is, if DRM is not seamless, or is not effective in it's goals, it should be removed in lou of better techniques for DRM. Punishing or annoying the players who actually payed for the game in order to slight those that did not pay for the game is ridiculous in my book, even worse when the DRM doesnt work and the pirates continue to have access to the updates anyway. Now my account has to be risked so you can force a guy to download the whole 100mb file for an update? Thats insulting to the userbase, and shows the devs have concerns that do not align with their customer's wants and needs. A DRM free approach is not necessarily the only answer, but it's a better answer than implementing DRM that is cracked and bypassed anyway. The moment the pirates defeat your DRM, I do believe a developer should be pressured to remove it and stop subjecting their fanbase to useless bloatware DRM that has already failed.

This is what factorio currently has, DRM that has not worked and exposes people to a possible point of security failure, go and check the release dates of the latest factorio updates on torrent sites, it is likely someone has automated the upload of factorio's new versions to be near instant on release. If and when the multiplayer DRM is disabled and pirate multiplayer servers go up, I think the devs will still subject people to authentication, and I really don't have any respect for that approach, as I feels it proves a lack of respect for the persons who actually payed for the game. It's as though game developer's believe a failed attempt to stop pirates is more worthwhile than removing restrictions from the people who payed for the game fair and square.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by therapist »

Darthlawsuit wrote:
therapist wrote:
Darthlawsuit wrote:Already a topic on this and already been answered multiple times:
Again Ill say, come off of it. VapidLinus, the OP, wanted to know the answer to his question, and at least the angry morality police were staying on the topic and answering his question. Getting upset that the question is brought up, and pointing out over and over and over the flame war occurred in another thread about this topic WILL NOT stop this discussion.

We value the input of letting others read the nasty flame war thread, but it might be nice to have an actual discussion about this topic between human beings rather than just letting trolls duke it out. Maybe you could start your own thread where you complain about how many times this topic has come up and how you wish people wouldn't discuss it because it has been answered just so so so many times (the one flamewar thread).

What if I mirrored your disapproving sentiments and said I don't really feel this is the place to voice your opinion on the validity of this thread or this discussion, the topic of this thread is trying a game by pirating it first before buying. Accept this discussion will occur (YES, AGAIN) and either contribute, or choose not to contribute. We can start a thread just for bashing the discussion or raising awareness about how this question has already been answered if you want, but maybe expressing that sentiment for the third time is unnecessary?

The discomfort from the forum users surrounding this topic is so amazingly palpable it's unreal. It's as though some of you feel dirty or start to squirm at the mere mention of "piracy" about your beloved. She (factorio) is all our beloved, and we all love her differently. One way is not better than another, all roads to sales are a success for our proud beauty queen, even those you might find unsavory.
Already posted my thoughts on the other topic, can you not be bothered to read? You want me to make a topic to complain about the 2 times this has came up? What an obvious fail troll you are.

I'd like to see you mirror my sentiments since you couldn't possibly have gained much from the little I posted, go ahead I am waiting. Well that last sentence just proved you are incapable of clicking a link and reading what I posted in that thread. You are such an obvious troll it is unreal...

Image

Since you are lazy here is a direct link: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 031#p13031
My point being, what is your opinion on this behaviour? Feel it's 'right' to pirate games, and buy them if you enjoy them? Even if there is a demo?
I bought Rome 2 at full price and I have yet to get my money's worth, it is a broken piece of shit that I wasted $60 on. Why waste $60 on a non-functional game when you can pirate it to make sure the game works and offers what was promised then buy it if the game wasn't misleading in its advertising. Half the games I have bought I pirated first, infact they are my BEST games that I play the most. I got into paradox games by pirating Europa universialis 3, then buying it and all expansions... Then I moved on to Hearts of iron 3 and own everything now. Heck I pirated Crusader Kings 2 and I now own most of the DLC released for it :P. Sunk hundreds of hours into those games and I threw my money at them, nothing for them to complain about.
I'm not trolling, I believe every word I've posted, and they made a thread for you to voice your concerns about how this topic isnt worth talking about: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =27&t=4038

I have skimmed the other topic and it's more insults and threats than real discussion, this only increases the need for this discussion, although if you just want to accuse people of trolling when they are being sincere then there might not be much hope for this thread either.

Maybe if you didn't insist of claiming people are just putting you on for fun when they are being completely serious then they would read your posts all the way thru. Do you know what trolling is? I'm not sure if you actually think I would fake finding value in this discussion, or if you have a different definition of troll than the rest of the internet does.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by Psycho0124 »

Gonna chime in here, as I did in the other thread on this subject; I pirated factorio first, loved it, and bought a copy without a second thought. I've since bought another copy for my oldest son (I know I could have just copied the archive over to his machine but meh, Factorio kicks ass and the devs deserve the cash). I also spread the word whenever I can. I can't speak for all pirates ofc, but for me, piracy is rip-off protection. With all the shady companies and crappy products out there, I've got no moral hangups about try-before-you-buy.
Khyron wrote:
therapist wrote:So let me ask you plainly, is there such a thing as good DRM? Should software/game developers be permitted to make any efforts to prevent their game from being pirated?
[boring anecdote] I've got a big plastic tub full of old PC games in my storage shed. A lot of the game boxes have an unopened twin; Morrowind, Oblivion, Theme park, Dungeon Keeper series, Homeworld series, Carmageddon (and splat pack), Hitman series, just to name a few. Most of these sets of twins have something in common: They shipped with no DRM. I know, I'm just one old guy.. a drop in the bucket and all that, but I can't be the only weirdo out there that votes with his wallet and doesn't mind casting a ballot more than once. Lack of DRM is a strong selling point for me.[/boring anecdote]

I'm of the opinion that DRM makes for an inferior product (some schemes more-so than others). I've purchased DRM-laden games, only to uninstall and stuff them back in the box and use the pirated version (Remember Spores DRM fiasco?). DRM turns stripped-down pirated versions into superior products and that's just not acceptable for a paid-for experience. A draconian DRM scheme is a strong deterrent to purchase for me. It tells me the developers harbor mistrust for their customers and that's never a good frame of mind to develop a product from.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by therapist »

Psycho0124 wrote:Gonna chime in here, as I did in the other thread on this subject; I pirated factorio first, loved it, and bought a copy without a second thought. I've since bought another copy for my oldest son (I know I could have just copied the archive over to his machine but meh, Factorio kicks ass and the devs deserve the cash). I also spread the word whenever I can. I can't speak for all pirates ofc, but for me, piracy is rip-off protection. With all the shady companies and crappy products out there, I've got no moral hangups about try-before-you-buy.
Khyron wrote:
therapist wrote:So let me ask you plainly, is there such a thing as good DRM? Should software/game developers be permitted to make any efforts to prevent their game from being pirated?
[boring anecdote] I've got a big plastic tub full of old PC games in my storage shed. A lot of the game boxes have an unopened twin; Morrowind, Oblivion, Theme park, Dungeon Keeper series, Homeworld series, Carmageddon (and splat pack), Hitman series, just to name a few. Most of these sets of twins have something in common: They shipped with no DRM. I know, I'm just one old guy.. a drop in the bucket and all that, but I can't be the only weirdo out there that votes with his wallet and doesn't mind casting a ballot more than once. Lack of DRM is a strong selling point for me.[/boring anecdote]

I'm of the opinion that DRM makes for an inferior product (some schemes more-so than others). I've purchased DRM-laden games, only to uninstall and stuff them back in the box and use the pirated version (Remember Spores DRM fiasco?). DRM turns stripped-down pirated versions into superior products and that's just not acceptable for a paid-for experience. A draconian DRM scheme is a strong deterrent to purchase for me. It tells me the developers harbor mistrust for their customers and that's never a good frame of mind to develop a product from.
What a troll.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by Khyron »

therapist wrote:...likely the first step to DRM in multiplayer
a) I would call that pretty wild speculation.
b) So what if it is? This kind of authentication for updates is very common in games, as you point out. There is very low inconvenience to the user and very low security risk if you apply common sense password management. I don't see the problem. The only two things you've mentioned as problems are the potential security risk and the added effort of typing your username/password in. These are extremely trivial concerns in my book. The security risk is astronomically low if you apply basic password management. What is the worst that could happen? Now weigh that against the potential gains of having more people buy the game which supports Factorio development.
c) "in multiplayer" is superfluous. Either the game has some DRM or it does not. This reads very much like "I'm concerned that those who pirated the game will not be able to play multiplayer". Again, people who pirate the game have no "rights".
therapist wrote:Calling email DRM was a step too far, but it is digital authentication management, and can be used by email providers who charge for email service as a sort of DRM.
Email is an open standard protocol. What you're talking about sounds more like SaaS.
therapist wrote:Alot of the DRM options you list have nothing to do with video games (not since 1998 anyway) and I'd really rather discuss video game DRM in the modern sense, which, to me and most of the "video game media" refers to forcing a user to login to gain access to content. I think you too often assume companies are completely innocent and have no intent of implementing DRM with their actions, I am not so trusting as you are.
Windows still uses CD keys, CAD still uses hardware dongles for licenses, many small utility programs from places like cnet implement a limited time license. But sure, let's move to games. It's not a matter of innocence. I'll complain about DRM when it's intrusive or obstructive (or stop using the product). Until then, it's a non-issue.
therapist wrote:I never even meant to imply that all DRM = Bad, the thing that "= Bad" is causing unnecessary problems to the people who actually payed for your game. Confounding pirates is one thing, but adding ANY level of annoyance to paying customers is a trifle severe in my book. Blizzard games on BattleNET have used a serial key and account login system to implement DRM since 1998, and I have always loved their system. The problem with some DRM schemes is how they cause users to repeatedly login, how they add security concerns by having a video game exe handling passwords rather than using a hardened tried and tested login platform, causing the user to connect to the internet just to play single player or LAN games, requiring authentication for mundane tasks like checking for updates, Using DRM in a way that degrades performance (SC2 did this originally, WOW's antihack service scanning system does this), etc. I could keep this list going but I'd rather not write a paper on the problems of DRM, the fact is, if DRM is not seamless, or is not effective in it's goals, it should be removed in lou of better techniques for DRM. Punishing or annoying the players who actually payed for the game in order to slight those that did not pay for the game is ridiculous in my book, even worse when the DRM doesnt work and the pirates continue to have access to the updates anyway. Now my account has to be risked so you can force a guy to download the whole 100mb file for an update? Thats insulting to the userbase, and shows the devs have concerns that do not align with their customer's wants and needs. A DRM free approach is not necessarily the only answer, but it's a better answer than implementing DRM that is cracked and bypassed anyway. The moment the pirates defeat your DRM, I do believe a developer should be pressured to remove it and stop subjecting their fanbase to useless bloatware DRM that has already failed.
So in summary:
a) Some implementations of DRM can cause problems for paying customers.
b) Some (tbh most/all) implementations of DRM fail to completely prevent piracy.

You really don't need to use 1000 words just because you feel passionately about this. Try to keep your message simple.
therapist wrote:This is what factorio currently has, DRM that has not worked and exposes people to a possible point of security failure go and check the release dates of the latest factorio updates on torrent sites, it is likely someone has automated the upload of factorio's new versions to be near instant on release. If and when the multiplayer DRM is disabled and pirate multiplayer servers go up, I think the devs will still subject people to authentication and I really don't have any respect for that approach, as I feels it proves a lack of respect for the persons who actually payed for the game. It's as though game developer's believe a failed attempt to stop pirates is more worthwhile than removing restrictions from the people who payed for the game fair and square.
You really need to step back and ask yourself what the outcome you're trying to achieve is. Your message is unclear. One possibly worthy goal I can sort of detect in all your words is "hey Factorio devs, don't waste your time with DRM. It's almost never effective and just inconveniences paying customers". But to be honest, I would be astounded if they didn't already know that.

If you have a simple, one line message in all this, how would you describe it?

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by Khyron »

therapist wrote:This is what factorio currently has, DRM that has not worked
Two more points.

You are still pushing the idea that the only reason for the username/password is to prevent piracy. Yet you still have no actual way of knowing this. It's just speculation.

You've declared that it has not worked by defining the success condition as "the latest version of factorio is not available on a torrent site". That's not a realistic expectation and I'm sure the developers were wise enough to not expect such an outcome, if indeed they were thinking authentication for updates would act as DRM.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by therapist »

Khyron wrote: a) I would call that pretty wild speculation.
I listed 3 reasons, if you think there is a reason that isnt in that list of three, I'd be glad to hear it.
Khyron wrote:b) So what if it is? This kind of authentication for updates is very common in games, as you point out. There is very low inconvenience to the user and very low security risk if you apply common sense password management. I don't see the problem. The only two things you've mentioned as problems are the potential security risk and the added effort of typing your username/password in. These are extremely trivial concerns in my book. The security risk is astronomically low if you apply basic password management. What is the worst that could happen? Now weigh that against the potential gains of having more people buy the game which supports Factorio development.
This kind of authentication is uncommon of for updates, especially in the indie game arena. Typically, a developer will link to third party file hosting sites and offer a download of ANY update a person might want thru those sites. They implement SERIAL KEY drm on the main game so you only apply the DRM at installation, and you are free to update at your heart's content. Other games offer an auto updater executable with no authentication at all. The potential security risk is very real, even if your security is as good as NASA's. Google virus on international space station if you want to hear how the best security in the world had a video game password stealer slip thru undetected. The worst that could happen is your password gets stolen., weigh that against the fact that updates are released the same hour as they are put on factorio's site, and I don't see any advantage at all.
Khyron wrote:c) "in multiplayer" is superfluous. Either the game has some DRM or it does not. This reads very much like "I'm concerned that those who pirated the game will not be able to play multiplayer". Again, people who pirate the game have no "rights".
You must not pirate much. Games are ALWAYS have their single play pirated. It's a guarantee. Multiplayer usually takes extra months to crack and release to torrent unless your dealing with a steam game, an indie game, or game where the pirates implement something called "pirate servers". Factorio's architecture will likely make multiplayer easy to pirate or create pirate server's for, so I'm not that concerned, but again, you try to imply I'm concerned with "legal rights" when I have said several times that this isnt an argument I have ever tried to make.
Khyron wrote:Email is an open standard protocol. What you're talking about sounds more like SaaS.
:shock: Email is a browser based service these days grandpa. Even outlook has become something called "live.com". If you want to use google mail for your business, it costs $15 a month last I checked. The companies I run IT for use live.com, because their service is free. I called the email login service DRM because unlike the old outlook application, a centralized company like google or microsoft can "turn off" your login if you stop paying or abuse their application. Email is email even when it is a application, I don't think it prudent to limit the word email to the ancient protocols from which it was birthed.
Khyron wrote: Windows still uses CD keys, CAD still uses hardware dongles for licenses, many small utility programs from places like cnet implement a limited time license. But sure, let's move to games. It's not a matter of innocence. I'll complain about DRM when it's intrusive or obstructive (or stop using the product). Until then, it's a non-issue.
Same with me, no intrusion, no flaws, etc (battle.net is a good example) no complaints from me.
Khyron wrote:So in summary:
a) Some implementations of DRM can cause problems for paying customers.
b) Some (tbh most/all) implementations of DRM fail to completely prevent piracy.
Change the first word "some" to mast and change the words "completely prevent" to "even slightly begin to prevent" and I'd agree with your summary.
Khyron wrote:You really don't need to use 1000 words just because you feel passionately about this. Try to keep your message simple.
I seem to have my words twisted and my message misunderstood or exaggerated, so please excuse the lengths I am attempting to be very specific.
Khyron wrote:You really need to step back and ask yourself what the outcome you're trying to achieve is. Your message is unclear. One possibly worthy goal I can sort of detect in all your words is "hey Factorio devs, don't waste your time with DRM. It's almost never effective and just inconveniences paying customers". But to be honest, I would be astounded if they didn't already know that.
My goal, was to discuss this matter on the factorio forums with the fans, and respond to each criticism or point made, line by line, in block format.
If they already know of the futility and annoyance of it all, then their actions really confound me. It's hard for me to believe that the priority of making customers happy is BELOW the priority of implementing DRM you know will be a failure. That simply can't be true.
Khyron wrote:If you have a simple, one line message in all this, how would you describe it?
My one line "message"?

"Big money, Big women, Big FUN."
-Sips McGillis President and CEO of SipsCo

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by muzzy »

therapist wrote:So if I understand you correctly, you do not consider it DRM because my current version of the game I have installed is not hindered in any way from running and does not require a login or other forms of DRM to operate?
Correct.
therapist wrote:I could bypass the whole mess by using the pirates for updates instead of risking my password running through the factorio executable.
So you'd rather trust an anonymous third party with executable code than get the patches directly from the vendor? That seems horribly counter-intuitive. There have even been cases of warez groups themselves including malware in their releases. It only gets worse with untrusted uploaders, as patches to an alpha game aren't likely going to be released by a scene group.
therapist wrote:(Piracy is actually legal if you own the digital rights to a product, it isnt illegal to access a product you already own even if it is from a pirate source)
Wrong. Copyright grants the copyright owner an exclusive right to create copies of the work, your rights as a consumer are defined as exceptions to this. You don't have a right to download anything at all unless a specific permission is granted one way or another. Here in EU some member states allow people to make private copies of published works for personal use, but this works regardless of whether you own a license or not (and tends to require the source to be a legitimate copy). The copies in pirate bay aren't authorized by the game developers and thus downloading them is technically illegal even if you have bought the game.
therapist wrote:It's an unsavory trade-off to make, but putting your password into a video game is a really bad idea for alot of reason
Use unique passwords. KeePass and 1Password and similar products are good stuff. If your Factorio password somehow leaks, what are the attackers going to do with it? Download factorio patches? Oh my.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by Gammro »

therapist wrote:
Khyron wrote:Email is an open standard protocol. What you're talking about sounds more like SaaS.
:shock: Email is a browser based service these days grandpa. Even outlook has become something called "live.com". If you want to use google mail for your business, it costs $15 a month last I checked. The companies I run IT for use live.com, because their service is free. I called the email login service DRM because unlike the old outlook application, a centralized company like google or microsoft can "turn off" your login if you stop paying or abuse their application. Email is email even when it is a application, I don't think it prudent to limit the word email to the ancient protocols from which it was birthed.
It's really stupid that this bothers me the most:
Mail still uses the age old protocol we use since back in 1982(SMTP). Possibility for encryption has been added in, as have some protocols for actually getting the mail off your server(POP3 vs IMAP etc.), but the protocol to send and receive mail HAS NOT CHANGED. Those services still run with the same protocol, and it's still possible to run your own mail server. Nobody forces you to go to a centralized mail solution.
The fact that you say this makes you seem like you don't know your stuff, so don't even go there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_protocol
Ignore this

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by therapist »

muzzy wrote: So you'd rather trust an anonymous third party with executable code than get the patches directly from the vendor? That seems horribly counter-intuitive. There have even been cases of warez groups themselves including malware in their releases. It only gets worse with untrusted uploaders, as patches to an alpha game aren't likely going to be released by a scene group.
Well, maybe thats your experience of piracy, but I don't think you should buy into the hype. My experience is the exact opposite, uploaders will either upload a whole disc image, or an entire executable file directly from the website, either of these can be confirmed to be the same file by hashing. In 15 years of piracy, I've never run afowl of some mysteriously malware executable, if I have I never noticed any effects of it. I'm so sure you don't believe this, although it is the honest truth. I simply select the file with the most seeders, read the comments, and this has always guaranteed my safety, the only notable exceptions to this rule were times when a tv show or movie hadn't been released yet, and I was always smart enough to know that something that hasn't been released yet, even with seeders, shouldn't be downloaded.
muzzy wrote:
therapist wrote:(Piracy is actually legal if you own the digital rights to a product, it isnt illegal to access a product you already own even if it is from a pirate source)
Wrong. Copyright grants the copyright owner an exclusive right to create copies of the work, your rights as a consumer are defined as exceptions to this. You don't have a right to download anything at all unless a specific permission is granted one way or another. Here in EU some member states allow people to make private copies of published works for personal use, but this works regardless of whether you own a license or not (and tends to require the source to be a legitimate copy). The copies in pirate bay aren't authorized by the game developers and thus downloading them is technically illegal even if you have bought the game.
You are correct from the perspective of the UPLOADER. The UPLOADER is breaking the law the first time he connects to a person who does not own a license to that product and he shares it with them, but if I legally own some movie or video game, then I have every legal right to download a copy of it from ANYWHERE as long as it is the same product and I can prove my purchase. Do you really think you could go to jail or be charged with stealing something you legally own? There is no country on earth with laws against this. Buying a product means not only do you own that copy of it, but if you lose that copy (and kept the receipt) any single copy of that work in your possession cannot be considered theft. I suppose if you had a stack of copies or something you would be charged. I'm fairly sure that you can even make yourself backup copies of any software you have bought without violating the law even if the terms of service expressly forbid this action. Modifying software is almost ALWAYS in violation of the terms of service, but breaking the terms of service by modifying software is not illegal (unless you share the modified version to people who did not own the originally unmodified version of course).
muzzy wrote:Use unique passwords. KeePass and 1Password and similar products are good stuff. If your Factorio password somehow leaks, what are the attackers going to do with it? Download factorio patches? Oh my.
Wow, for the love of god don't use products like those. *sigh* Using unique password when you have over 100 accounts across the internet would mean you either have to write down those passwords, OR use some kind of master keyring or password storage programs, all of these things are terribly insecure methods of security. Using any of these techniques means all of your passwords are tied to a single point of failure, which is about the most horrible thing you could ever do to yourself security wise. Remember heartbug? If I had captured your traffic, or the traffic of anyone that uses a program like that and kept a copy of the traffic with you accessing your keyring, I'd have some or even all of your passwords plain text. I probably actually have traffic like this from when I capture people's raw internet traffic while at hotels on holiday, but I'd never run exploits or even analyse their traffic without a VERY good reason like to prank my friends or girlfriend. (yes I'm a super-dork even while snowboarding my laptop is capturing all the traffic running thru the hotel's wifi AND wired systems) Really really really bad idea to use a keyring of any kind for security, you might as well just use 1 password for everything at that point because every account you own is tied to one password anyway, so if a single failure of security occurs, you're boned.

To your last question: If a pirate stole my account info he could use it to develop a version of factorio that logs in to the updater with my stolen credentials and lets any pirate on the internet download free updates, which would get my account deactivated and I would have to buy factorio all over again. There are crappy consequences to having any one of my accounts compromised, admittedly, some worse than others.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by cube »

So just to clarify:
Updater requires login partly because of the bandwidth, another part is, that you need to login to the site to download the game, if you were downloading the updates manually, you would still have to be logged in to the site, so this is just an shortcut allowing you to do the same thing more comfortably from inside the game.

Afaik multiplayer will not require login, although we have been discussing requiring login to use our matching server (because of the bandwidth, again).

... I must admit just skipped the last two pages of the discussion, so maybe this is terribly offtopic in this thread now.
I have no idea what I'm talking about.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by Zordah »

therapist wrote:Do you really think you could go to jail or be charged with stealing something you legally own? There is no country on earth with laws against this. Buying a product means not only do you own that copy of it, but if you lose that copy (and kept the receipt) any single copy of that work in your possession cannot be considered theft.
I believe in Australia we are not allowed to use pirated games even if we own the game legally.

Quoted from an info sheet at http://www.copyright.org.au/

Playing infringing copies of computer games
When we talk about “infringing” copies, we generally mean copies that were made
without the permission of the copyright owner and where no exception to infringement
applies. It does not matter whether the copies were made by individuals for their own use
or by pirates on a commercial basis).
Prior to 1 January 2005, owning, lending or playing infringing copyright items did not
generally create legal liability for copyright infringement. However, as a result of changes
to the Copyright Act that came into effect on 1 January 2005, someone who plays an
infringing copy of digital material may now infringe copyright.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by cube »

Zordah: I like that, add a few newlines and it is a weird poem:
Playing infringing copies of computer games
I have no idea what I'm talking about.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by therapist »

Zordah wrote:
therapist wrote:Do you really think you could go to jail or be charged with stealing something you legally own? There is no country on earth with laws against this. Buying a product means not only do you own that copy of it, but if you lose that copy (and kept the receipt) any single copy of that work in your possession cannot be considered theft.
I believe in Australia we are not allowed to use pirated games even if we own the game legally.

Quoted from an info sheet at http://www.copyright.org.au/

Playing infringing copies of computer games
When we talk about “infringing” copies, we generally mean copies that were made
without the permission of the copyright owner and where no exception to infringement
applies. It does not matter whether the copies were made by individuals for their own use
or by pirates on a commercial basis).
Prior to 1 January 2005, owning, lending or playing infringing copyright items did not
generally create legal liability for copyright infringement. However, as a result of changes
to the Copyright Act that came into effect on 1 January 2005, someone who plays an
infringing copy of digital material may now infringe copyright.
I believe everything you have said about your local laws, but I doubt sincerely that any court, australian or otherwise has ever, or will ever, attempt or succeed in, charging a person with copyright infringement, who A. can prove they have purchased a license of said game and B. used piracy or made a copy from a friend in order to replace the exact product they had purchased.

I think this law is likely meant to take away the opportunity of plausible deniability in court for pirates. Maybe I'm wrong, but I highly doubt charges have ever, or will ever, be brought against someone who has a reciept for a product they downloaded. Even the employees of microsoft were using copies of MS Operating Systems to install their OSes (with legitimate product keys of course) until it came out in the news in 2013 that this was the common practice. If what you are saying is true, that would have been a crime in australia covered under the act you cite. I'm on that website now so I'll post about this later when I find out if this law has ever been used to go after a legitimate license holder.

Edit: Can you link to what your quoting? I am searching that site and can't find it. Also, It says this law only applies where no exceptions to infringement occur. I am assuming that owning a serial key or license AND having a proof of purchase is an "exception to infringement". I'm not a lawyer, but i think this means that its possible this law applies to replicated or modified versions of a licensed work, things like your friend loaning you the backup copy of his disk, Using a No-Disk EXE, versions of windows with the registration disabled, etc etc would be illegal and prosecutable offenses, even if you owned the original work.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by therapist »

cube wrote:Zordah: I like that, add a few newlines and it is a weird poem:
Playing infringing copies of computer games
Yeah, it's legal to make or obtain exact copies of games/movies/books etc and even play them as long as you own them. Downloading content you already own is illegal if you "Format Shift" from a source that is not your own original copy, but you can't be charged in australia if it's an exact copy of the content you own.

So, for example, if you own a VHS of a movie, it is legal in australia to make that copy digital and put it on a DVD. What you CANNOT do is download a DVD copy of a movie just because you own the VHS. You can only "Format Shift" from your own copies. This means that even if you own a DVD or BlueRay, you cannot download a .avi or a .mpg or a .mkv of the movie, but it IS legal to make those files out of your own DVDs for the purpose of "Format Shifting". As long as you download the .ISO file of your EXACT DVD or EXACT version of a video game you own, you are not engaging in "Format Shift" and your all legal.

Check out this lifehacker article and this other article about australian copyright for all the details:
http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2013/01/fo ... australia/
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/ ... ca1968313/

And before you quote this:
What You’re Not Allowed To Do: Download Content you “already own”
Read what is right below this statement:
The format shifting provisions are fairly explicit about this; you’re allowed to format shift, but only from your own copy.

No format shift, no copyright infringement, I believe these are the exceptions to infringement you quoted earlier. If a personal backup of a computer program cannot be discerned from the original, it is the original. What is odd about this specific australian law is: if the music or works of art WITHIN a video game are copyrighted, you cannot transfer that music, images or other art to your backup copy of the game. (the rest is fine) Only the game's software is allowed to be transferred to a backup despite the game being copyrighted. I wonder how many games contain copyrighted songs or images, only the software aspect of these games can be transferred to a backup, and shared with people within your household.

Edit: so yeah, even down under you can legally acquire works you already own, but they will come down on you major flipping hard if you attempt to "format shift" thru piracy or forget to remove copyrighted "art" from game backups if you are unlucky enough to live in australia. Sorry wallabees and wallabettys.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by therapist »

More australian copyright law info:

Data backups and "Mix tapes" are another exception to those restrictive rules.

Create an iso file of a game you own and put it on your computer: Legal

Burn that ISO onto a disk: Illegal
(unless you remove any copywritten music or images.)

Put 5 video game .iso's you own onto a DVD or BlueRAY: LEGAL

This also applies to archives and whole backups of a computer. As long as you remember to call that zip file you downloaded from the piratebay a "backup file" of data off of your own computer, you are exempt from the australian anti-piracy acts.

Edit: Also interesting, ripping a DVD in australia is illegal if you circumvent the DRM (make an avi file out of a DVD with DRM). BUT if you make a bit for bit ISO of the DVD, and make copies from that (or simply mount and watch the .iso file), you haven't circumvented the DRM and thusly, haven't broken any laws. You can;t sell the copies or return the original to the store or anything like that, but you can share the copies with members of your household or even friends as long as you don't "broadcast" or distribute the DVDs.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by Zordah »

I believe it was from http://www.copyright.org.au/find-an-ans ... evelopers/ in the "Games and Copyright" info sheet.

I'm not a lawyer either but as far I can tell computer games are different than music etc. It is not format shifting which is allowed but with software we are allowed to make "backup" copies. By this I believe it is making a copy of what you already have (eg copying an install DVD) but wouldn't cover downloading a pirate version etc.

I wouldn't think that you would get convicted by any reasonable person but since when has "the law" been "reasonable" in all cases :)

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by muzzy »

therapist wrote:Do you really think you could go to jail or be charged with stealing something you legally own? There is no country on earth with laws against this.
Yes. There have been cases of people downloading music and getting caught, and trying to defend themselves by saying they already owned the CD. It didn't fly well.

Ownership is about a specific copy, not about a title. Only the copyright holder owns the actual work, you own a very specific copy of it and the origin of this copy matters. You can't just replace it with another, even if the replacement is 100% identical, because the origin matters.

There's a good article about the issue of data origin, "What color are your bits?" which explores the issue.
therapist wrote:
muzzy wrote:Use unique passwords. KeePass and 1Password and similar products are good stuff. If your Factorio password somehow leaks, what are the attackers going to do with it? Download factorio patches? Oh my.
Using any of these techniques means all of your passwords are tied to a single point of failure, which is about the most horrible thing you could ever do to yourself security wise.
In my opinion, keyrings are the current best practice of password management.

While keyring software is a single point of failure, it's a point of failure that exist within my protected computer alone. The attack scenario against keyrings involves malware that grabs they keyring after it has been decrypted by me. In the future, I believe keyrings will be secure even against ring0 attacks against the host that is using them because the keyring is decrypted inside another VM that isn't directly accessible from the operating environment.

And your alternative is to use the same password everywhere? That is a single point of failure that is exposed across all your services, if one gets hacked you lose everything.
therapist wrote:Remember heartbug? If I had captured your traffic, or the traffic of anyone that uses a program like that and kept a copy of the traffic with you accessing your keyring, I'd have some or even all of your passwords plain text.
You mean heartbleed? You know, the keyring is local and even if it was stored on the internet you would only have the encrypted copy of it. This attack scenario doesn't play out.
therapist wrote: To your last question: If a pirate stole my account info he could use it to develop a version of factorio that logs in to the updater with my stolen credentials and lets any pirate on the internet download free updates, which would get my account deactivated and I would have to buy factorio all over again.
Password leaking is the worst scenario you can think of? The recovery involves changing your password, and in the worst case you'd have to contact support. That's not so bad.

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Re: Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

Post by muzzy »

cube wrote:Afaik multiplayer will not require login, although we have been discussing requiring login to use our matching server (because of the bandwidth, again).

... I must admit just skipped the last two pages of the discussion, so maybe this is terribly offtopic in this thread now.
Don't worry about skipping some pages, you aren't missing anything :D

It's good to have some actual facts from the developers, because currently the discussion is running on pure speculation that perhaps you're going to validate license online when playing multiplayer and yaddayadda. It's good to hear you aren't interested in anything like that, unless it involves providing a service that costs you money to run.

PS. Have you considered moving the updater into a separate launcher? That would end this whole discussion about the updater. You'll need to make a clean non-updating executable for Steam eventually anyway.

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