Fusion Power

[Xeanoa]

It's been suggested before, so I won't make a new suggestion thread about it.

But I'd really like to know why, instead of expanding on the fusion power that's already in the game (and thus exists as a proven technology), everyone seems to try to want to brute-force old-school fission power into the game as an end-gameesque energy source (and I agree that one is totally needed).

-For fission you need to add a whole new ressource, which only serves very limited purpose. You can only burn it in one specific reactor, and at best make some heavier piercing ammo with it.
-The reactor designs proposed seem to be overly complicated. While a lot of people like these things, I think this is something that should be left to mods. Fusion reactors could easily be expensive, but mass producible, if they follow the current design. This fits the general theme of the game: just make more of it!

[Mehve]

We don't have fusion power right now. We have a magic box that is built from processing units and alien eggs, that somehow outputs power without any fuel intake, that just happens to be called "Fusion Reactor". We could have just as easily called it an "Unobtainium Subspace Zero-Point Energy Generation Device", with absolutely no meaningful change to gameplay. And the fact that requires no input or maintenance after initial construction basically makes it no different from solar power.

[MeduSalem]

Yeah well... if fission power or fusion power I don't really care... as long as there's a scalable endgame solution to power and additional gameplay added to the game.

That said I am also a lot for consistency... so if the player equipment would be tied into that whole concept the better.

[TheTom]

So, you want to play a game about building more and more complicated supply chains but complain about an ambundat end game power providing technology being complicated to design? Do I point out the funny side clear enough?

[Xeanoa]

We don't have fusion power right now. We have a magic box that is built from processing units and alien eggs, that somehow outputs power without any fuel intake, that just happens to be called "Fusion Reactor". We could have just as easily called it an "Unobtainium Subspace Zero-Point Energy Generation Device", with absolutely no meaningful change to gameplay. And the fact that requires no input or maintenance after initial construction basically makes it no different from solar power.

Whatever you call it, it makes energy. It's clean, works indefinitely, doesn't need more space than your entire factory by itself. An end-game solution to power should not require the same constant maintenance as boiler/steam.
If you need to consume fuel, do something like: water > assembly machine > fusion fuel

So, you want to play a game about building more and more complicated supply chains but complain about an ambundat end game power providing technology being complicated to design? Do I point out the funny side clear enough?

You got it wrong. All the production chains in the game are easy. Even Blue Science production only combines simple production chains, but a lot of them, with various intermediate products also needed elsewhere.

[Mehve]

We don't have fusion power right now. We have a magic box that is built from processing units and alien eggs, that somehow outputs power without any fuel intake, that just happens to be called "Fusion Reactor". We could have just as easily called it an "Unobtainium Subspace Zero-Point Energy Generation Device", with absolutely no meaningful change to gameplay. And the fact that requires no input or maintenance after initial construction basically makes it no different from solar power.

Whatever you call it, it makes energy. It's clean, works indefinitely, doesn't need more space than your entire factory by itself. An end-game solution to power should not require the same constant maintenance as boiler/steam.
If you need to consume fuel, do something like: water > assembly machine > fusion fuel

When you start discussing what "end-game" should look like in a game all about producing things, you're going to get some pretty differing opinions To my mind, "end-game" should require lots of infrastruture to keep going. For those that don't feel like it, we have the solar/accu combo which is basically set-and-forget, and if it takes a lot of area to set up, it's in a game with infinite land. Your proposed fusion reactor seems to be entirely devoid of both drawbacks AND gameplay additions.

[MeduSalem]

Your proposed fusion reactor seems to be entirely devoid of both drawbacks AND gameplay additions.

Well there could surely be a production chain around fusion reactors as well... because you need to provide Deuterium and Tritium anyways as fuel source to keep the fusion reaction going. And somehow you also have to deal with getting the fusion byproducts out of the reaction chamber or otherwise the fusion reaction becomes inefficient or might even break down.

There are even hybrid concepts... like Fusion-Fission that use the abundance Fast Neutrons that come from the Fusion Reaction to sustain a sub-critical Fission reaction, which in turn is able to consume any radioactive material in the process... and which might actually be necessary in real life to actually break-even. So we might actually never be able to use pure fusion power anyways.

[Xeanoa]

We don't have fusion power right now. We have a magic box that is built from processing units and alien eggs, that somehow outputs power without any fuel intake, that just happens to be called "Fusion Reactor". We could have just as easily called it an "Unobtainium Subspace Zero-Point Energy Generation Device", with absolutely no meaningful change to gameplay. And the fact that requires no input or maintenance after initial construction basically makes it no different from solar power.

Whatever you call it, it makes energy. It's clean, works indefinitely, doesn't need more space than your entire factory by itself. An end-game solution to power should not require the same constant maintenance as boiler/steam.
If you need to consume fuel, do something like: water > assembly machine > fusion fuel

When you start discussing what "end-game" should look like in a game all about producing things, you're going to get some pretty differing opinions To my mind, "end-game" should require lots of infrastruture to keep going. For those that don't feel like it, we have the solar/accu combo which is basically set-and-forget, and if it takes a lot of area to set up, it's in a game with infinite land.

The game is about producing things, that's correct. It should be expensive, and require most of the science completed in order to build it.
But the game is also about automation. A fission plant that requires a lot of maintenance to keep going is contradictory to that. What reason do I have to use fission over solar/accu (which basically is a make-shift contraption of two early game techs to negate most of each others drawbacks, but coming with its own), when I can just spam the latter and never look at it again, having infinite clean energy?

We already have 'infinite, clean energy' in the game. The drawbacks being the area required to set it up, and the fact that your accus can run out of power in the middle of the night if you're not careful. A more advanced energy source would have to have a smaller footprint, and continuous power output, maybe even have the capacity to cover energy spikes without batteries.

our proposed fusion reactor seems to be entirely devoid of both drawbacks AND gameplay additions.

Neither does fission power add anything new. It's just a more powerful version of steam power.
Which leads me to another argument. If we get an advanced version of steam power, why not an advanced version of solar/accu?

[bobucles]

An end-game solution to power should not require the same constant maintenance as boiler/steam.

That's a great way to have one power system rule them all. Remember solar power? It does not require the same constant maintenance. It requires no real maintenance at all. That's why it's the winning choice.

If you want all power systems to be useful, then every choice NEEDS to have flaws. Otherwise players will use the easiest option that gives the most energy.

[Xeanoa]

If you want all power systems to be useful, then every choice NEEDS to have flaws. Otherwise players will use the easiest option that gives the most energy.

Obvious flaws would be the requirement of having a majority of research completed and high initial costs. That alone would make it an endgame tech, and you'd still have to use other power systems intermittently. Ones that don't scale to the same degree as easily.

[MeduSalem]

But the game is also about automation. A fission plant that requires a lot of maintenance to keep going is contradictory to that. What reason do I have to use fission over solar/accu (which basically is a make-shift contraption of two early game techs to negate most of each others drawbacks, but coming with its own), when I can just spam the latter and never look at it again, having infinite clean energy?

Because spamming Solar/Accumulator blueprints is mind-numbingly boring as it requires absolutely no thought process or interaction of the player with the game whatsoever.

Like you said the game is about automation so having a "plop & forget"-option for a certain gameplay feature (which Solar Power is) eventually starts to feel like cheating around said gameplay feature. It feels like one doesn't want to deal with the energy production issue (which in my opinion acts as a mechanic to prevent fast over-expansion, which many games have in some way or another) and it has been discussed multiple times over by a lot of experienced players that Solar Power really lacks any engaging depth... once you figured out the classic 0.84 ratio that's all the depth you're going to get. The moment you go for Solar Power you are only killing part of your own fun.

I don't know how long you have been playing the game so far, but eventually a lot of people who initially praised Solar Power for its easy aspects absolutely despise it now because eventually they played the game for so long that they want the game to provide more challenges, so they look forward to the additional gameplay features. Eventually Solar Power just doesn't cut it for them anymore because its lack of gameplay is against the spirit of an "automatation & maintenance"-game.

There is this thread here exactly for that reason: Solar panels less of a no-brainer

Neither does fission power add anything new. It's just a more powerful version of steam power.
Which leads me to another argument. If we get an advanced version of steam power, why not an advanced version of solar/accu?

An even more advanced version of something that is completely boring in the first place? How would that look like?

Having only 1 Solar Panel-Accumulator item that is so powerful that the solar power plant is squeezed down to 1/10 of its initial size?

If you would want a more advanced form of Solar/Accumulator it would have to be one that adds maintanence and other production/consumption chains too. Like for example having Solar-Thermal power instead of Photoelectric which is actually how I think that Solar Power should work currently. But it is something most people who are so in love with their boring Solar Power wouldn't want to have to deal with because they are so used to having not to build any maintenance cycles for their power plants.

Obvious flaws would be the requirement of having a majority of research completed and high initial costs. That alone would make it an endgame tech, and you'd still have to use other power systems intermittently. Ones that don't scale to the same degree as easily.

There's always the mediocre argument about huge initial setup/research costs but the truth is almost nobody really gives a damn about setup/research costs in a sandbox type of game that can be played forever because you wouldn't really know where else to dump your infinite resources anyways. Except if you are speedrunning which limits you to a certain limited "window" where resource management really counts... but that's a niche and most people don't go for fast playthroughs. So after a certain point you will break-even with whatever initial costs get thrown at you. After that you profit forever and that's just boring because the game stops being engaging because you get that "I'm done with everything, now what?"-feeling. In sandbox type of games the maintenance part is actually a part of what can keep a game alive well beyond initial goals and isn't that one of the definitions of endgame?



The fun part is that I really expected such threads to turn up eventually (as I pointed out in some of my contributing posts in the "Solar panels less of a no-brainer thread") when Fission Power is included in the game, but I didn't expect people to completely argue against it before it is even implemented and released.

[Mehve]

The game is about producing things, that's correct. It should be expensive, and require most of the science completed in order to build it.
But the game is also about automation. A fission plant that requires a lot of maintenance to keep going is contradictory to that. What reason do I have to use fission over solar/accu (which basically is a make-shift contraption of two early game techs to negate most of each others drawbacks, but coming with its own), when I can just spam the latter and never look at it again, having infinite clean energy?

We already have 'infinite, clean energy' in the game. The drawbacks being the area required to set it up, and the fact that your accus can run out of power in the middle of the night if you're not careful. A more advanced energy source would have to have a smaller footprint, and continuous power output, maybe even have the capacity to cover energy spikes without batteries.

That was kind of my point from earlier - you seem to want a power source with no drawbacks. There's already tons of threads to be found concerning solar power, the degree of it's imbalance, and what (if anything) to do about it. Not trying to put words in your mouth, but the few drawbacks that solar can claim, and you want them gone too?

Obvious flaws would be the requirement of having a majority of research completed and high initial costs. That alone would make it an endgame tech, and you'd still have to use other power systems intermittently. Ones that don't scale to the same degree as easily.

When it comes to anything "endgame", the required research and initial costs aren't valid balancing factors. No matter how large they are, amortized over time, those things eventually reduce to zero, and you're left with a virtually perfect power source with no drawbacks. That's an endgame power source for Simcity, not Factorio.

And just to clarify, I'm not talking about actual maintenance (I have no desire for such aspects), but simple game interaction. For steam power, you have to set up a water source, you need to route it through boilers, you need to obtain coal and transport it to the power plant location, distribute it throughout and load it into the boilers. Set up properly, it's maintenance-free, but the very act of designing and setting it up is in keeping with Factorio's gameplay style. With solar... less so, to put it mildly. Medusalem's example, where the fusion fuel would require processing and extraction before it was suitable for loading

[Xeanoa]

Sounds like you're on the opposite side.

Why not give players both options. Steam+Fission for those who want to meddle with power as a component to look after, and Solar/Accu+Fusion for those that find that having to look after power beyond setting it up is annoying and really takes away from the game?

What way players get a choice. If you think Solar/Accu is cheating, then you get to use Steam or Fission. And if I hate the maintenance aspect of Steam and Fission, then I get to use Solar/Accu or Fusion.

[Mehve]

It's all very well to talk about "player choice", but you can justify pretty much anything with that line.

Is there really a need to offer something even more hands-off and oversight-free then what solar/accu offers right now? At the moment, being able to completely ignore energy issues is just a mod away. Is there such a widespread need for this that it should be integrated into the vanilla experience? This is in a game about production, remember. I'm a little surprised that someone might love this game and what it offers, yet find the current energy options abhorrent.

[Xeanoa]

Setting up energy gets really boring after the nth time.
It's either placing rows of pump, 14 boilers, 10 steam engines, or placing squares of solar power blueprints. There is no variation, you hardly have any means of doing things differently. There is no fun in that. Yes, I'd very much prefer an option to just place down and forget.

With your production chains, there's much variation, you can do it differently every game. Differently modules, bus or no bus, producing circuits on site or in a separate department, going logi bots all the way or sticking to belts...

What can you do with energy, other than building the same thing over and over and over?

[MeduSalem]

Setting up energy gets really boring after the nth time.
It's either placing rows of pump, 14 boilers, 10 steam engines, or placing squares of solar power blueprints. There is no variation, you hardly have any means of doing things differently. There is no fun in that. Yes, I'd very much prefer an option to just place down and forget.

With your production chains, there's much variation, you can do it differently every game. Differently modules, bus or no bus, producing circuits on site or in a separate department, going logi bots all the way or sticking to belts...

What can you do with energy, other than building the same thing over and over and over?

Somehow I don't get it... you like that there is a lot of variety in how to set up production chains etc, and on the other hand you argue against having similar interesting production chains for power production. That looks like as if you are desperately trying to defeat your own fun.

So instead of arguing "Power production as it is currently is boring so I want it even more to be just plop & forget" you should rather think about suggesting something that makes setting up the power production more interesting on the long term even after you are doing it for the nth time.